Relatively-progressive piano trio recs in the 60's

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, for forever it seems I have lamented the absence of a piano trio recordings by Herbie Hancock, Andrew Hill, and McCoy Tyner, during their "Blue Note" years (in the 60's).

• ( Sure, Andrew Hill did record a handful of tracks in the traditional piano-trio format -- a couple tracks on Black Fire, and few tracks here and there at sessions from 1965 and 1966 -- but never a whole "classic" piano trio album. Drat!! And sure, McCoy Tyner did record some trio albums for Impulse in the 60's, but none for Blue Note, and none during his Blue Note years - or at least none that I'm aware of. The only McCoy trio album from the 60's that I've heard is his all-Ellington album from 1964 - I suppose I should probably look for more though. )
  

Anyway, any thoughts as to why there are comparatively few piano-trio albums during the 60's?? -- particularly the mid and late 60's (my favorite timeframe for jazz) -- especially from those jazz pianists who were "relatively progressive" (meaning like Herbie, Andrew, and McCoy), as opposed to the really "hard core progressive" guys, like Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra -- and the more "inside" players, like Wynton Kelly -- or more lyrical guys, like Bill Evans.

Or, perhaps another way of saying this is that I would kill to hear a good handful of trio albums by Herbie and Andrew (in particular), or McCoy, during their prime years (1963-69), for Blue Note.

Seems to me that it would have only been logical for all three of them to have recorded in the traditional trio format at least a time or two (in the 60's). Any reason why that never happened??

(And it probably goes without saying -- if anybody has any suggestions for some GREAT "relatively progressive" piano trio dates from the 60's, lay 'em on me!!!! )

EDIT: I remembered last night, after I had already shut down my PC, the two Chick Corea trio albums on Blue Note, from '68 and '70. I mention them down below...

Edited November 13, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Big Wheel]

Not sure I can answer your question as to why Alfred didn't record these trios, but one should bear in mind that Blue Note didn't record any piano trios between 1963 and 1967, except for the heretofore unissued Andrew Hill trio with Teddy Robinson and Ron Carter.

Why? I'm not sure, but here are some hypotheses:

1. Alfred Lion thought they wouldn't sell well enough. The Three Sounds were one of the only piano trios BN recorded between 1960 and 1963, and maybe their sales figures by the end weren't encouraging Alfred to get any more adventurous.

2. Lion didn't consider any of the '60s guys worth recording in the trio format. Maybe he didn't think that they were progressive to the degree Horace Silver, Bud Powell, Thelonious Monk, and Herbie Nichols had been in the late bebop/early hard bop era. (Of course, then we have to wonder how Jutta Hipp fits in.) I think my first hypothesis is still more likely. Silver wasn't recording whole albums in the trio format either in this period.

3. Maybe nobody wanted to do the trio thing at this time. A lot of the albums of these pianists on Blue Note are very much driven by the compositions, which emphasized horns. For some piano players (Herbie Nichols, maybe Silver as well?) organizing a quintet to play their compositions was an important goal. Or maybe Alfred considered the format antiquated and wanted to hear new conceptions from his more adventurous musicians (Herbie with Latin percussion, Andrew Hill with two bass players).

4. Similar to hypothesis number 1, but with a slight twist: as much as Lion liked these pianists' playing, perhaps he was afraid that they wouldn't have enough name recognition by the record-buying public. It's hard to believe now, but I'm willing to bet that Herbie Hancock was not particularly well known even among the jazz-buying community until he joined with Miles. So Lion hedged his bets on some albums by putting horn players on the records who might be better recognized--Dexter Gordon, Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Kenny Dorham, etc.

Edited March 17, 2004 by Big Wheel

[couw]

I gather you STILL haven't picked up the Valdo Williams on Savoy?

Remember this thread?

Wouldn't know why this sort of thing wasn't recorded more often. Maybe the obscurity of a player like Williams -- this is a fabulous album that deserves to be better known -- is a general sign of those times.

[Rooster_Ties]

Then again, there's the Chick Corea trio dates on BN from the very late 60's ---"Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" (1968), and "Song of Singing" (1970). (I thought of them just after I shut off my PC late last night - and am glad to see that nobody had mentioned them before I'm adding them here now.)

Yeah, couw, I still need to get that Valdo Williams disc, couw - thanks for the reminder!! I keep forgetting about that one - gotta keep my eyes out for it when I'm on-line (cuz lord knows I'll never see it in a store). Here's another reminder to myself...

Valdo Williams: New Advanced Jazz

EDIT: I just found one on half.com, for $10.32 (band new, still sealed, and the $10.32 included shipping!!) -- so I just pulled the trigger on it. Should be to my front door within 5 days!! Thanks for the reminder, couw!!!!

Edited March 17, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Big Wheel]

At least "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" was not technically a BN album--it was made for Solid State. Not sure where "Song of Singing" fits in.

[clifford_thornton]

Valdo is the shit. What about those Don Friedman records for Riverside? I guess they're '62-'63 but pretty great progressive trio jazz. And of course Bley...

[Rooster_Ties]

What about those Don Friedman records for Riverside?

Don't know 'em -- do tell!! Actually, I don't know a damn thing about Don Friedman. And I don't ever think I've ever heard his name before today, actually. Yikes!!

[Stefan Wood]

You don't know about Don Friedman? Well, time to start! He's an excellent if relatively not well known (outside jazz world) player -- you can start with Day in the City, or Circle Waltz, on Riverside, or check out the recordings with Atilla Zollar, in the mid 60's (Metamorphosis, Dreams and Explorations), which are probably closer to what you are looking for in "advanced" piano jazz. Okay, Metamorphosis is a quartet session, but man does it smoke!

Edited March 17, 2004 by Stefan Wood

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Don't know Don Friedman??? Have I got a website for you -

www.JazzDiscography.com

Mike

[Big Wheel]

Tom, knowing your tastes, those Booker Little albums with Friedman would be must-owns for you.

[Rooster_Ties]

Don't know Don Friedman??? Have I got a website for you -

www.JazzDiscography.com

Mike

Scanning the Friedman discography (thanks!!!), I see that I do own at least one or maybe two sessions that he's a sideman on. Joe Henderson's "Tetragon" in particular. Not sure if I have anything else though, oddly enough.

[Peter]

Check out Pandelis Karayorgis's "Heart & Sack". I think its on Leo. This is a fairly recent (3-4 years) recording. Certrainly "free" jazz, but not a thrash fest nor a lot of dead "air/space". This one really yanks my bobber under!

[Chrome]

Did George Russell ever record any trio dates?

[Pete C]

Would Hampton Hawes' "The Seance" count as a relatively progressive date? It definitely counts as a great date.

There's certainly lots of great Bley trio recordings from the '60s.

Among others, Footloose, Touching, Closer.

[Pete C]

Is anybody familiar with this obscure session?

Mal Waldron Trio

Mal Waldron (p) Giovanni Tommaso (B) Pepito Pignatelli (d)

Munchen, West Germany, May 30 & 31, 1966

Steady Bread Karim KLP 14

Blues for Picchi -

Rosa -

Marco -

For Bob -

Theme "The Coureus" -

View from St. Luca -

Chim Chim Cheree -

Dock Scene -

Speedy -

* Mal Waldron Trio (Karim KLP 14)

[Larry Kart]

Been following Don Friedman since "Circle Waltz" came out on Riverside. Friedman's relatively recent trio album "Waltz for Debby" (with George Mraz and Lewis Nash) is a gem. One highlight is a version of "I Concentrate On You" there that's among the most highly charged, invention-upon-invention-in-every-bar readings of a standard I've ever heard.

[Pete C]

New Yorkers can catch Don Friedman with a trio on April 5 at the Blue Note. Cover is only $10.

[Alexander Hawkins]

One that immediately sprang to mind on seeing this thread, and which was discussed somewhere recently, is the 'Max Roach Trio featuring the Legndary Hasaan' album. I bought it on the strength of the recommendations in that other thread, and I really enjoy it.

Have now had my curiosity pricked about this Valdo Williams guy..!

[Alexander Hawkins]

Actually, someone else I know nothing about is Horace Tapscott, but I do know that lots of people speak very highly indeed about him. Is there a good starting point for his music? Perhaps in a trio format, of preference?

[Pete C]

There's not too much Tapscott that's easy to find. Maybe his best is "The Dark Tree" on HatArt, with the amazing lineup of Tapscott, Cecil McBee, Andrew Cyrille, and John Carter on clarinet. The trio album, "Thoughts of Dar Es Salaam" is available and excellent, with Ray Drummond & Billy Hart, so that might be your best entry point.

[brownie]

Yes for Don Friedman!

Yes, yes for Phineas Newborn who recorded a series of superb albums for Contemporary in the '60s.

Check the following:

- A World of Piano (with Paul Chambers, Philliy Joe Jones and Sam Jones and Louis Hayes),

- The Great Jazz Piano of Phineas Newborn (with S. Jones and L. Hayes and Leroy Vinnegar and Milt Turner),

- The Newborn Touch (with L. Vinnegar and Frank Butler),

- Please Send Me Someone to Love (with Ray Brown and Elvin Jones),

- Harlem Blues (with R. Brown and Elvin again).

Not a bad one in the lot.

[Rooster_Ties]

Mal Waldron - Free at Last (ECM, 1969)

[The very first ECM release too, I might add. B) ]

Recorded in 1969, this was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, when I started this thread in the first place. AMG only gives it 3 stars (Yanow), but it's close to a 5-star disc in my book. Very interesting, and I understand somewhat different than much of Mal's other work around that same time.

I think I've listened to this disc about 6 or 8 times since I first got it, about two weeks ago.

PS: Hey Bev - if you happen to see this post, I think this disc would be right up your alley. Heck, you might even already have it.

[John B]

Actually, someone else I know nothing about is Horace Tapscott, but I do know that lots of people speak very highly indeed about him. Is there a good starting point for his music? Perhaps in a trio format, of preference?

Hat recently added The Dark Tree as a midprice title. I would highly recommend starting with this one.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Thanks for the tips!

[Rooster_Ties]

Jaki Byard - Sunshine of My Soul (Prestige, 1967)

Any reviews from folks here??

Also looks like several of Jaki's trio recordings from the early 60's might well fit what I'm looking for (or nearly so). Any thoughts on them??

Edited April 16, 2004 by Rooster_Ties