The Future of Jazz

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, medjuck said:

I was hoping that you were going to tell me that "Brazilliance" had been a hit. 

I could tell you that, but it would be a lie.

The funny thing about Shank is that he really didn't change his basic playing on those MOR records. In the heyday of WCJ, he was always a guy with a uniques (enough) sense of bobby/weavy phraseology, but nothing ballgrabbing profound or anything, Just a nice (enough) player.

In some ways, the whole MOR thing made him sound better, because he couldn't/didn't have to rely on "jazz trappings", all he had to do was do what he always did. Those records (and by far the worst of the lot, imo is Meets The Sax Section(is that what it's called?), which was a surprise to me, I was expecting MUCH better) actually highlighted what was unique about his playing, instead of covering it up with "jazz". Because as a "jazz player", Bud Shank was pretty useless except as a Pleasant Placeholder and an integral piece of the WCJ Nostalgia Game, Maybe after his "comeback", a little more..."intense", but only in self-comparison.

[JSngry]

9 hours ago, Brad said:

If I want to listen to Paint it Black, I will stick with the originals.

Are you that picky about all source material played by "jazz" players? Is your collection brimming with Original Cast albums, perchance?

I mean, I'd love to live in a world where the Post-Reconstruction Narrative went a different way, and Southern African-Americans were totally capitalized and incentivized and abilified to create their own music industry from the ground up instead of always having to depend in some form or fashion on outside capital, outside influences, outside tastes, that shit would have been totally different than what happened instead. A widely and wildly different model for source materials would certainly have emerged, a totally different paradigm. Maybe not for the better (I mean, the fusion/tension/exploitation certainly created the hot fuckmess of an industry that made people rich, happy, and/or bitter and broken for well over a century), but definitely different.

Just saying. people with an aversion to "jazz versions" of anything on the first-line-of-protestation that "I prefer the original"....that's Expectation Bias, not musical acuity. Cats are either playing well or they're not. That's music. The rest is sociology. Those two things intersect a great deal, but they are not the same things, and it behooves one's betterment to learn what the Venn Diagrams are really showing.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

10 hours ago, Brad said:

If I want to listen to Paint it Black, I will stick with the originals.

If I want to listen to "Paint it Black," I will go with the definitive version, below. 

Today's generation is saying some truly beautiful and important things, and we adults have a responsibility to listen. However, sometimes the message of today's youth is best delivered with a veneer of elegance and sophistication.

 

[JSngry]

Don Sebesky did not fail without trying, though:

and Jack Sheldon succeeded with supreme success:

Oh, look, here's a seemingly unforced Bud Shank making the kids implore to why not Stan Kenton, mom, did he ruin YOUR college dance like he did Aunt Helen's too?

 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

12 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Don Sebesky did not fail without trying, though...

Sebesky's Verve album "The Distant Galaxy" is a masterpiece, combining the best of today's rock sound with eastern and electronic aspects, all delivered with jazz's trademark veneer of suave, elegance, and sophistication. His music truly points to a new plane on which jazz and rock not only coexist, but mutually thrive. (Chicago and Blood, Sweat & Tears similarly point to such a plane from a more rock-oriented perspective.)

 

 

[Big Beat Steve]

33 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

If I want to listen to "Paint it Black," I will go with the definitive version, below. 

Today's generation is saying some truly beautiful and important things, and we adults have a responsibility to listen. However, sometimes the message of today's youth is best delivered with a veneer of elegance and sophistication.

 

Karel Gott?  He cannot have been THAT exotic(a)
Sounds like "Kalinka" with him ...

You're really pulling everyone's leg here.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Big Beat Steve

[Teasing the Korean]

16 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

You're really pulling everyone's leg here.

It took a lot of guts for someone of my stature to start this thread, and I knew that I would receive blowback from the jazz purists. But in order for jazz to thrive, we can't just keep listening to Stan Kenton. We really need to open our ears, minds, and hearts to the vibrations of today. This is precisely what Mr. Sebesky is doing, and I applaud him for it. I realize that I will make a lot of enemies for saying this, but I need to be true to my convictions. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Teasing the Korean

[jazzbo]

Someone listens to Kenton? I just don't see Kenton, or Sebesky, as relevant to the future of jazz.

[T.D.]

37 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

 

You're really pulling everyone's leg here.

No shit, Sherlock.

A certain "irony deficiency" seems endemic to Internet discussion forums. 

[JSngry]

31 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

But in order for jazz to thrive, we can't just keep listening to Stan Kenton. We really need to open our ears, minds, and hearts to the vibrations of today.

Dee Barton tried to tell him.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

T.D., the sense of irony is there alright. Although you'd find it hard to muster yourself if you had lived in a country where you'd have run the constant risk of being exposed to much, much more by this "grandma's favorite grandson singer" of the late 60s and 70s. 

Anyway, it made the day for a friend of mine who is all for this kind of weirdo cover versions by German-language pop singers of the 60s. With this YT clip she'll be off to a great start into the new week at the job.

TTK, may I respectfully suggest, though, that in your laudable quest for new stimuli for jazz to thrive you do include something somewhat more meaty as well. The blues ain't dead!

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Big Beat Steve

[kh1958]

35 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

It took a lot of guts for someone of my stature to start this thread, and I knew that I would receive blowback from the jazz purists. But in order for jazz to thrive, we can't just keep listening to Stan Kenton. We really need to open our ears, minds, and hearts to the vibrations of today. This is precisely what Mr. Sebesky is doing, and I applaud him for it. I realize that I will make a lot of enemies for saying this, but I need to be true to my convictions. 

You mean your kitschvictions.

[felser]

3 hours ago, Brad said:

I generally lost interest in popular music and rock after the mid 70s. 

Can't imagine why

[JSngry]

1977 was a pretty good year though. Maybe not for Bud Shank, but oh well about that.

 

[Justin V]

18 hours ago, jazzbo said:

I think the future of jazz has more to do with artists like Sons of Kemet and Kamasi Washington and Mary Halverson than Don Sebesky . . . .

Regarding Washington, he may be the future commercially, but I find him to be  unlistenable.  When I saw him open for Herbie last year, I left the amphitheater and waited for his set to be done.  His music was heavy-handed, repetitive and uninspired.  When I briefly chatted with a couple who had brought their baby, the dad referred to the concert representing a changing of the guard.  When you think of all that Herbie had done by the time he was Washington's age compared to Washington's output (and what Herbie is still doing, for that matter), it was a laughable statement.  

[JSngry]

1977!

Get that good teenagedanceengy!!!

[Brad]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Are you that picky about all source material played by "jazz" players?

 

No because as mentioned I like Grant’s I Want to Hold Your Hand and Organissimo’s Beatles album so it depends on the artist. If you like Shank’s or Joe Pass’ versions, hey, that’s fine. I don’t. 

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

If I want to listen to "Paint it Black," I will go with the definitive version, below. 

Today's generation is saying some truly beautiful and important things, and we adults have a responsibility to listen. However, sometimes the message of today's youth is best delivered with a veneer of elegance and sophistication.

 

Sounds like something out of a Eurovision concert from the late 60s. 

[JSngry]

I Dilla's better than Shank's

 

[Brad]

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Today's generation is saying some truly beautiful and important things, and we adults have a responsibility to listen. However, sometimes the message of today's youth is best delivered with a veneer of elegance and sophistication.

 

“A veneer of elegance and sophistication.” As determined by who? You? Do you hear how you sound?

People should say what they want to say however they want to say it. 

[JSngry]

Although, Bud Shank, more than just a veneer here!

 

[jazzbo]

59 minutes ago, Justin V said:

Regarding Washington, he may be the future commercially, but I find him to be  unlistenable.  When I saw him open for Herbie last year, I left the amphitheater and waited for his set to be done.  His music was heavy-handed, repetitive and uninspired.  When I briefly chatted with a couple who had brought their baby, the dad referred to the concert representing a changing of the guard.  When you think of all that Herbie had done by the time he was Washington's age compared to Washington's output (and what Herbie is still doing, for that matter), it was a laughable statement.  

I think I like his recorded music better than you do, haven't seem him live. I agree his music is heavy-handed and more a synchretic than pioneering work, but it's reaching people who don't necessarily respond to a lot of other jazz, and I think he's far more relevant to jazz's future than Sebesky.

[JSngry]

You know where both Stan Kenton AND Don Sebesky fucewd up? By not having Bill Perkins play alto more often.

The Perennial Hero of ANY occasion, Bill Perkins.

BILL PERKINS, Y'ALL!!!!

But to the true and seemingly lost forever Future Of Jazz, we have to turn to one Walter Raim, who put it there in ALL kinds of places, really, where did THIS come outta from?

Sebesky maybe coulda, but hardly, if ever did, not this wonky.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

13 minutes ago, Brad said:

“A veneer of elegance and sophistication.” As determined by who? You? Do you hear how you sound?

People should say what they want to say however they want to say it. 

Oh, I agree, they should indeed!

But as listeners, you and I can decide how we wish to receive those messages. 

So a sentiment that may come off as vulgar and uncouth when delivered by an unrefined rock artist becomes far more palatable when delivered in a genteel, polished, and cultured manner. 

And is this not the essence of jazz? Sophisticated music delivered with a veneer of elegance and urbanity? 

If you wish to hear "Paint It, Black" by Mr. Jagger, you have every right to do so, but I prefer the version by Gabor Szabo.

 

 

[jazzbo]

21 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Oh, I agree, they should indeed!

But as listeners, you and I can decide how we wish to receive those messages. 

So a sentiment that may come off as vulgar and uncouth when delivered by an unrefined rock artist becomes far more palatable when delivered in a genteel, polished, and cultured manner. 

And is this not the essence of jazz? Sophisticated music delivered with a veneer of elegance and urbanity? 

If you wish to hear "Paint It, Black" by Mr. Jagger, you have every right to do so, but I prefer the version by Gabor Szabo.

 

 

A veneer of elegance and urbanity is not a necessity for jazz in my listening world!

[danasgoodstuff]

If Mr. Teasing is just teasing and saying that our attempts to predict the future of jazz now are just as absurd as past attempts seem to us now, then of course, but he's not likely to just say so.  If he's suggesting that there was some lost opportunities and/or paths left less than fully explored back them, well sure but I don't think he and I would be on the same page regarding which might have been or still could be worth further exploration now.  "kitschvictions" not very nice, but somewhat insightful.

"And is this not the essence of jazz? Sophisticated music delivered with a veneer of elegance and urbanity? "  Um no, I don't think so.  It's deeper than that, and more complex, and it might have a veneer (or not) but its essence is not on the surface.  Which is not to say that something with that kind of veneer can't have more going on beneath the surface, but it's no guarantee that it will.  And to me, true sophistication knows when to be simple and direct. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by danasgoodstuff