May COVID 19 Poll

[Larry Kart]

The right to drink does not confer the right to drive drunk.

[Rooster_Ties]

23 hours ago, JSngry said:

Please cite your sources (yes, plural) for this claim.

I hadn’t seen that specific article (just some short clips in the news, possibly cable news). And I appreciate you (and the other mods) not reflexively deleting the link to the article, even if discussion isn’t possible here.

(Tons of news/link aggregation sources that I scan for stuff all the time, but then I miss a day, and easily miss a few good ones.)

[Justin V]

2 hours ago, Brad said:

As Larry might have said said, “hoe”

I understand the need to move on and will do so but it’s an important question: liberties vs obligations. Have you seen this article regarding Texas, Businesses Chafing Under Covid-19 Lockdowns Turn to Armed Defiance

Rarely does a photo of people being arrested warm my heart so much.

[Brad]

7 minutes ago, Justin V said:

Rarely does a photo of people being arrested warm my heart so much.

I probably shouldn’t say anymore so as not to sabotage this thread and get sent to Marshall Jim’s Pokey

[JSngry]

We all know the rules.

[Coda]

You can now see projections by state:

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

[catesta]

On 5/13/2020 at 7:25 AM, bresna said:

I've read that if both people wear a mask it lowers the chance of virus transmission by 80%. That's all we need to know. Wearing a mask helps prevent transmission. Whether you have it or the other person has it, if you both wear a mask, it should stay with that one person.

Maybe in a perfect setting with proper fit and maintaining 6'+ away from each other, with non-cloth masks, but how often does that happen?  Most don't fit well, or the nose is exposed. I've seen people with the best intentions still lower their masks to talk. Faces still get touched, eyes are still exposed and yes, best case scenario is, if you cough or sneeze you have blocked some of the larger droplets. The same masks are being worn over and over again. Just like with reusable grocery bags (which are now not welcome in most stores now), how many are washable and how many are washing them? Most are disposable and meant for single use, although maybe you can stretch that for a few days, but still.

 

 

I've seen people wearing masks while driving in their cars with the windows up. Seems rather stupid to me, and yes, it could potentially be dangerous. 

Why can't we challenge opinions and some of the science? Why has the become so taboo that we are citing the 2nd amendment and comparing differing opinions to yelling fire in a movie theater?

Do any of you remember the warnings about the overuse of hand sanitizers and it killing off good bacteria and effecting the ability of our hands to heal properly? What happened to that science?

I wonder, If the CDC was to say in a week that masks are no longer necessary or won't help, how many of you would stop wearing one?

I do not believe Covid-19 is a hoax but that does not mean I have to believe and support a one-way thought process that forces us to be afraid of going outside without a mask.

I found this article and the follow up interview to be a very reasonable piece of information on the whole mask thing and what works and doesn't.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/mask-respirators/cloth-masks-are-useless-against-covid-19

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by catesta

[mjazzg]

3 hours ago, Brad said:

As Larry might have said said, “hoe”

I understand the need to move on and will do so but it’s an important question: liberties vs obligations. Have you seen this article regarding Texas, Businesses Chafing Under Covid-19 Lockdowns Turn to Armed Defiance

That article just makes me so glad I was on the losing side 250 years ago   And given what's happening over here at the moment it takes something to say that.

[Brad]

20 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

That article just makes me so glad I was on the losing side 250 years ago   And given what's happening over here at the moment it takes something to say that.

Funniest — but truest (is that a word?) — thing I’ve read today.

This is an issue on which you’d think there is unity but sadly there appears to be less and less of it. 

[JSngry]

53 minutes ago, catesta said:

I do not believe Covid-19 is a hoax but that does not mean I have to believe and support a one-way thought process that forces us to be afraid of going outside without a mask.

good that you don't believe it's a hoax.

but as far as "forcing" anybody to be afraid...seriously? People allow themselves to be afraid.

I'll welcome the distinction between people making informed decisions that don't jibe with your informed decision and people just being buttskinned SCARED.

There is a difference, and one size does not fit all.

Freedom does not equate to everybody reaching the same conclusion, and that works from ALL sides.

[catesta]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

good that you don't believe it's a hoax.

but as far as "forcing" anybody to be afraid...seriously? People allow themselves to be afraid.

I'll welcome the distinction between people making informed decisions that don't jibe with your informed decision and people just being buttskinned SCARED.

There is a difference, and one size does not fit all.

Freedom does not equate to everybody reaching the same conclusion, and that works from ALL sides.

Fair enough. It may have come off that way but I didn't mean to imply it was one way or the other.

[ghost of miles]

Stories like this one out of South Korea make me think we’re in for an extremely rough ride re reopening:

One South Korean man responsible for 80 new infections

[Brad]

Reopening was always going to lead to more cases  That’s not unexpected.  However, can we stay closed forever. No, I don’t think so. 

[Larry Kart]

18 minutes ago, Brad said:

Reopening was always going to lead to more cases  That’s not unexpected.  However, can we stay closed forever. No, I don’t think so. 

Does anyone think or has anyone who's sane said that we should or we have to stay closed FOREVER? If not, why even raise the issue  for rhetorical reasons, as I think/hope you're doing? If everything stays as bad as it is now or even gets worse, eventually things will be less closed down and/or there will be a good many fewer people around to care about it.

[Brad]

12 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Does anyone think or has anyone who's sane said that we should or we have to stay closed FOREVER? If not, why even raise the issue  for rhetorical reasons, as I think/hope you're doing? If everything stays as bad as it is now or even gets worse, eventually things will be less closed down and/or there will be a good many fewer people around to care about it.

The scientists would have us stay closed as long as possible while the openers go to the other extreme so to say the issue is raised for rhetorical reasons is...rhetoric. There are sensible middle grounds for proceeding cautiously in order to keep the pain and suffering as low as possible.  

[ejp626]

I'm moderately hopeful about the reopening approach BC and Ontario are taking, though I don't think enough people here are wearing masks.  I do feel Quebec is opening way too fast, given that they still lead Canada in terms of infections and deaths.

[JSngry]

I do think that this is the time for everybody to step back and look at the options.

If you can continue to something with no or minimal contact, then by all means, continue to do so.

And what you can't -  or just don't want to - then be responsible for protecting yourself and others as best as possible.

And for crying out loud - look at the data. Every place I know of has daily updated official data.

And if you can't trust that data, then one or both of you have a problem that the rest of us can't fix. Just stay out of the way while the rest of us try to be sane and sensible about shit, ok?

Just because it "feels safe now" doesn't mean that it is. And just because it "still feels dangerous out there" doesn't mean that it is. Totally depends on where you are and who you're around.

KNOW THE DATA. PAY ATTENTION TO FACTS.

In the end, it all comes down to everybody being responsible for their our own behavior.

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, Brad said:

The scientists would have us stay closed as long as possible while the openers go to the other extreme so to say the issue is raised for rhetorical reasons is...rhetoric. There are sensible middle grounds for proceeding cautiously in order to keep the pain and suffering as low as possible.  

But "as long as possible" is not forever. Also, "stay closed as long as possible" is your interpretation/claim of what the scientists are saying; it's not what they are saying. They are saying "stay closed until -- as Jim says above -- the data and the facts indicate that it's reasonably safe not to stay closed."

[JSngry]

And, you know, this IS a free country, not a perfect one. And there are stupid people who are going to do stupid things for stupid reasons.

Which is not to say that there is only one "smart" thing to do, just that there are definitely some stupid things to do, and that there are going to be some people doing them.

Same as it ever was.

Proceed accordingly, and y'all stay safe.

[JSngry]

20 minutes ago, bresna said:

 I don't know how the small store & restaurant owners, who often treat their workers like family, would want to subject these people to such a health risk. I just don't understand it. Anything for a buck?

Pretty sure that in some instances, there are no good choices. None. COVID-19 is not a good choice, and neither is losing everything, literally.

Do you let your family get sick? No.

Do you let your family lose everything they have and be alive but flatass broke and out on the street? No.

Pretty sure there ARE options here, but not within the current economic orthodoxy.

"Anything for a buck"...that could be greed talking, or that could be desperation. Gotta listen closely to decide which it is.

 

[Brad]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

But "as long as possible" is not forever. Also, "stay closed as long as possible" is your interpretation/claim of what the scientists are saying; it's not what they are saying. They are saying "stay closed until -- as Jim says above -- the data and the facts indicate that it's reasonably safe not to stay closed."

 No, it’s not forever but when it’s reasonably safe not to be closed is not precise, although I side with what the scientists want because it’s fact based unlike many of our politicians.  Look, I’m fortunate that I’m retired and generally don’t have to put myself as risk but I know there are a lot of people out there who have to make choices that put them in harm’s way. 

[medjuck]

Here's some good advice about how to act when we do re-open:  

 

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2Z37gXzJYnsa-54XKubYRcsbDrtZONILoA6DSRDWTnYxlXfbSs3y5BkH8

6 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

Stories like this one out of South Korea make me think we’re in for an extremely rough ride re reopening:

One South Korean man responsible for 80 new infections

Nightclubs!? 7200 people in 5 of them!!?  WTF!  You can begin reopening without allowing that. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by medjuck

[felser]

I read that Erin Bromage article in the NYT earlier in the week.  Excellent.   I sent it to my management at work for consideration.

[Brad]

11 minutes ago, felser said:

I read that Erin Bromage article in the NYT earlier in the week.  Excellent.   I sent it to my management at work for consideration.

Are you referring to this: https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

[felser]

48 minutes ago, Brad said:

Are you referring to this: https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

Yes.