COVID-19 III: No Politics For Thee

[jlhoots]

Come on everybody - just get vaccinated, boostered & wear your mask. Could wash your hands too. 

 

[medjuck]

2 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

2 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

This is in fact the middle ground - vaccine requirements (with some allowance for immunity via prior infection), and relatively light restrictions otherwise (I'd put indoor masks during periods of high transmission, and requiring contagious people to isolate, in the same bucket).

 

 

According to this  there probably shouldn't be an "allowance for immunity via prior infection".

 https://www.multicare.org/vitals/vaccines-vs-immunity-from-previous-infection-cdc-study-offers-important-clues-about-how-best-to-protect-yourself-from-covid-19/

[sgcim]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but is it a coincidence that Donald Byrd wrote a tune named "Omicron" that was recorded on a Paul Chambers LP as well as a Donald Byrd album?

Even worse, could this have anything to do with Mark Stryker's accusations of Byrd selling out in the book he wrote about Jazz From Detroit"?

[jazzbo]

There was an OG Star Trek episode where an Omicron infects crew members and makes them idyllically happy. It's just a letter of the Greek alphabet after all.

[Pim]

5 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Pim: Thanks to you, I have been doing as much reading as I possibly can about all or some of this in a rather brief time, and a key element seems to be that of so-called "breakthrough cases" -- that is, cases among people who have been fully vaccinated. Such people, the medical consensus so far seems to be, will be less susceptible to serious symptoms, but they will be capable of transmitting the virus to others. Thus, perhaps and in part, the situation you have described taking place in the Netherlands. This is particularly so in today's era of Omicron.In this regard I particularly recommend Eleanor Cummins' story in the Monday 12/20 issue if the New York Times, "Most Covid Infections May Soon Be Breakthroughs." I'll try to post a link to that story below.

BTW, that development may answer a question I've been asking myself: "Why are so many professional athletes coming down with Covid when one assumes that most of them are fully vaccinated?" Fully vaccinated though they may be, they are playing and practicing and associating in locker rooms in close contact with each other, and those of them who are so-called breakthrough cases can transmit the virus to others who are vaccinated, even though most of these athletes who are vaccinated may go on to have less than severe symptoms. A minor matter in the overall situation we're facing but a perhaps revealing part of the puzzle.

Cummins Covid story:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/19/opinion/omicron-breakthroughs.html?smid=url-share

Thanks for sharing that article Larry. Interesting stuff. This is mostly what I mean. Vaccinated people are contagious but with the vaccinated only policy they give vaccinated people the feeling they are safe. And governments weird way of communicating attributes to that feeling: with a vaccination you could do and visit whatever or whoever you like because hey: you are vaccinated. Part for some moral objections to the policy this is mostly why I feel it’s just not right to do. As I said: if the vaccination was very effective and the way out of this crisis I might have been pro mandatory in the interest of public health. But it doesn’t work that way (yet).

Of course I do agree, this is scientifically proven, that it does help against hospilizations especially on the ICU. As I said I am glad my 70+ parents took the booster last week. Although I have to say I was still shocked by how many vaccinated people got hospitalized anyway.  What I tried to explain with arguments is why I, as a 30 year old healthy guy, have doubts about getting a booster. And I feel really anxious bout people who want to force me to vaccinate my two boys. I have fAith in science and it’s probably going to be okay but things are still unsure yet and we have just began. I think I have the right to doubt as it’s my health and my sons health we are talking about. 

4 hours ago, jlhoots said:

Come on everybody - just get vaccinated, boostered & wear your mask. Could wash your hands too. 

 

This is exactly what I mean with the other extreme side opposite from the conspiracy loonies. ‘Just shut up and do as you’ve been told, if you don’t you’re crazy and a hazard to society’. 
 

Why shouldn’t people think critical of policies, ask questions, discuss and exchange ideas? That is what makes democracy such a great system. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Pim

[sidewinder]

Madness in the supermarket this morning - people bumping into you and barging through just to get hold of their damn Xmas sprouts and parsnips. The basics on social distancing seem to be being forgotten !

Edited December 22, 2021 by sidewinder

[Dan Gould]

12 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

We mandate vaccination in lots of contexts, in most countries.  George Washington mandated variolation against smallpox for soldiers in the US continental army!  This idea that it's somehow liberty-destroying to require vaccines is kooky and ahistorical.

 

Actually when you use the Washington/smallpox example, you are ignoring the context:  A fledgling army, in a state of war.

He didn't mandate variolation against smallpox across the community, or that community would have declared his orders liberty-destroying, just like King George, to try to force everybody to try this newfangled method of smallpox prevention.

At that time, most people probably thought all you needed was a "good bleeding" to get over the pox.

[Brad]

11 hours ago, jlhoots said:

Come on everybody - just get vaccinated, boostered & wear your mask. Could wash your hands too. 

 

Couldn’t agree anymore. Omicron is running rampant through this state but everywhere I go the number of people masked up are in the extreme minority.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

8 hours ago, Pim said:

Why shouldn’t people think critical of policies, ask questions, discuss and exchange ideas? That is what makes democracy such a great system. 

But that's what is wrong here. "People" - and I'm including politicians here - are making decisions based on bogus information while the doctors and scientists stand off to the side scratching their heads at the insanity of someone getting their medical advice from Tucker Carlson instead of reading the multitude of studies filled with data saying that this is the best way to go.

If Louis Pasteur invented pasteurization today, we'd still have dummies listening to some talking head telling them that pasteurization is bad and that no one should force it on them. And we'd have people dying from diseases caused by consuming unpasteurized products.

[Brad]

8 hours ago, Pim said:

Why shouldn’t people think critical of policies, ask questions, discuss and exchange ideas? That is what makes democracy such a great system. 

In the US, we see this taken to the extreme.  Instead of people acting for the common good, they act for themselves. “My body, my rights.” Really? What happened to everyone working together for the common good? I doubt even the founders would have agreed with this concept of freedom. That’s not freedom, that’s anarchy, nihilism run amok. The concept of working together seems to have gone the way of the Dodo bird.  There is science — facts — and nothing else. It’s indisputable that unless the world gets vaccinated, mutations will continue to develop and each succeeding one seems more infectious than the prior one. 

[jlhoots]

Outbreak of listeria in the US today. If we follow Pim's instructions we should eat the potentially infected greens anyway & take our chances. Not me. Of course, I'm much older & not immortal.

[OliverM]

Pim, I (maybe also like you?) find omicron's arrival discouraging, but knowledge has progressed, the vaccines have exposed our immune systems to the virus, and that should help us. We might still get contaminated but the probability that it is severe is smaller. The virus' evolution has been very unlucky for us while scientists' ability to make vaccines has been impressive. I don't think we should judge the vaccines on the virus'  mutations (those were out of the picture at the time). There aren't many "easy", obvious policies to be made in the face of this virus, which has now become extremely difficult to contain with delta and omicron.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by OliverM

[Pim]

1 hour ago, jlhoots said:

Outbreak of listeria in the US today. If we follow Pim's instructions we should eat the potentially infected greens anyway & take our chances. Not me. Of course, I'm much older & not immortal.

Yeah instead of responding with reasonable arguments in a mature way, let’s just take the others arguments out of context and make a personal attack.

if you had bothered to read any of my posts you would have read that I based my opinion also on scientific facts as provided by the Dutch government. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Pim

[jlhoots]

3 minutes ago, Pim said:

Yeah instead of responding with reasonable arguments in a mature way, let’s just take the others arguments out of context and make a personal attack. 

Not much of an answer. Promise not to engage with you further on this apparently sensitive topic.

[Pim]

2 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Not much of an answer. Promise not to engage with you further on this apparently sensitive topic.

Thanks!

[Pim]

3 hours ago, OliverM said:

There aren't many "easy", obvious policies to be made in the face of this virus, which has now become extremely difficult to contain with delta and omicron.

 

I fully agree with that OliverM. I think nobody could have foreseen how hard it would be to overcome this terrible virus

[JSngry]

You overcome it the same way you do any virus - by "starving" it of places to live, replicate, and mutate.

That's not particularly hard. What seems to be hard is getting a general population to understand that that's the only thing that really works.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, Pim said:

I fully agree with that OliverM. I think nobody could have foreseen how hard it would be to overcome this terrible virus

Vaccines have overcome literally every major disease that's come our way. No more polio. No more Small Pox. The list goes on and on and on.

It is not that hard to overcome a virus once the scientists get to work and create a vaccine to combat it. It's just hard for some people to understand that.

[Pim]

Ah it’s that easy! Thanks guys. I’ll now shut my mouth, take the booster and wait till it’s gone. You are very right: the current vaccination program prooves to be very much effective. Really good comparible with the polio vaccin. It’s out of the question that scientists may not have a solution (yet). You have to think you’re way. If you’re a little critical you must be stupid or insane. And you are the reason of all misery in the world right now
 

I knew my opinion would not be a popular one here. I was prepared for everybody jumping on me. But what I was hoping for was for people to respond to my arguments which I based on scientific reports from our own government. I do that because I believe in science too. And in our government. Reading some of the responses here, you’ve clearly didn’t even read my posts. It’s more like: sounds like he’s not one of us let’s just respond with vaccination is the only way and people who doubt are stupid. It’s exactly what I meant with the missing middle ground. People refuse to even listen to what others are saying and try to discuss with them. It’s all about just repeating your own vision and opinion. People even think it’s a bad case that all these others could have a different opinion than themselves and could speak out for we are in a democracy. It’s not what I teach my students. I teach them to always be critical of what you here and listen to others. If you disagree with someone you have to listen closer. You might have a blind spot. 

Fortunately there were some guys who might disagree with me but responded in a polite and mature way: Larry Kart, mjazzg and OliverM. Thanks for sharing thoughts.

Some comforting news: Nobody has to doubt the fact I will get my booster. I’ll be forced anyway. now I’ll retreat quietly and shut up. Oh and of course listening some  jazz music for its almost Christmas holidays here   

Edited December 23, 2021 by Pim

[Niko]

guess in retrospect it's not too surprising that the vaccine against Covid is more like a flu shot that has to be repeated regularly than like a polio vaccine... it's not "just the flu" because it's worse, but in some other ways, it seems to behave like it's distant cousin the flu... nobody can really blame it for that... I just hope that in the medium run we can go down to yearly shots...

[JSngry]

The virus is rude. Needs to learn some manners.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Pim - this plea for a "middle ground" does not sound like that at all. Maybe it's how you are saying it, but it comes across as if you think no one should be forced to vaccinate. That is not any sort of middle ground. It is contradictory to the general public's need and contradictory to the science. When something contradicts the majority, that is not the "middle", that's an extreme.

One of the problems with this world today is this supposed desire to move everyone to the center, implying that it is what everyone wants. We don't want that in this instance. We want to end this pandemic and the way to end it is for everyone to get vaccinated, everyone keep their masks on when indoors, and everyone keep their distance until the numbers drop and we get over this.

Instead, here in the US, we have parents picketing school boards demanding that all social distancing be stopped, all masks go away and that kids diagnosed with Covid should be able to attend school. That is not in any way, shape or form any sort of "middle ground". That is just plain nuts. But you're asking me to allow them this belief because that is your definition of "middle ground"?

I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

[jazzbo]

5 hours ago, Niko said:

guess in retrospect it's not too surprising that the vaccine against Covid is more like a flu shot that has to be repeated regularly than like a polio vaccine... it's not "just the flu" because it's worse, but in some other ways, it seems to behave like it's distant cousin the flu... nobody can really blame it for that... I just hope that in the medium run we can go down to yearly shots...

The flu that we are getting shots for I have read are weaker variants of the 1918 flu. This will likely be case with COVID if we can get past this pandemic stage.

Kevin, I feel the same way. It's amazing that in this country years of little lies become superglued onto a Big Lie from a Big Liar and now millions are embracing lies and nonsense and endangering the nation. Somehow this has to end. . . I pray it can and peacefully.

Edited December 23, 2021 by jazzbo

[Jason Bivins]

Just signing on to agree how demoralizing it is to still be having some version of this conversation after nearly two freaking years. As I tell my students on the first day of the semester (in a purple state, at a university with no vax mandate), you have approximately 12 mandatory vaccines in your body right now just to attend this school, and you're gonna raise questions about the efficacy of science mid-stream? Social media and lying politicians are doing a fine job at undermining trust in everything.

[JSngry]

39 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

The flu that we are getting shots for I have read are weaker variants of the 1918 flu. This will likely be case with COVID if we can get past this pandemic stage.

More and more I hear "endemic", to replace "pandemic". That would be both a success and a failure, imo.

People make choices, and choices have consequences.