COVID-19 III: No Politics For Thee

[JSngry]

Covid has been like Viagra for Pfizer!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My company backed off from their vaccination mandated day of December 1st. They gave everyone who isn't vaccinated a 90 day reprieve. Like that's going to get them to change their minds? Yeah, right.

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, bresna said:

My company backed off from their vaccination mandated day of December 1st. They gave everyone who isn't vaccinated a 90 day reprieve. Like that's going to get them to change their minds? Yeah, right.

If I might ask, did your company ever or yet state what the consequences/repercussions would be for employees failing to get vaccinated by the deadline? -- Either back when it was Dec 1, or now when it's 3 months later.  Termination of employment?  Higher healthcare premiums?  Some other penalty?

[sonnymax]

NBC News reports: Anti-vaccine Christian broadcaster Marcus Lamb dies at 64 after contracting Covid…In recent months, a number of prominent anti-vaccination Christian broadcasters have died from Covid-19. Conservative radio hosts Dick Farrell, Phil Valentine and Marc Bernier, who were unvaccinated, all died after they contracted Covid.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

If I might ask, did your company ever or yet state what the consequences/repercussions would be for employees failing to get vaccinated by the deadline? -- Either back when it was Dec 1, or now when it's 3 months later.  Termination of employment?  Higher healthcare premiums?  Some other penalty?

It was stated as termination and yet, they still had a lot of people refuse to get vaccinated.

34 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

NBC News reports: Anti-vaccine Christian broadcaster Marcus Lamb dies at 64 after contracting Covid…In recent months, a number of prominent anti-vaccination Christian broadcasters have died from Covid-19. Conservative radio hosts Dick Farrell, Phil Valentine and Marc Bernier, who were unvaccinated, all died after they contracted Covid.

Add him to this list: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

[jlhoots]

The Centers for Disease Prevention and Control said Wednesday it identified the first confirmed case of the Omicron variant in the U.S.

[JSngry]

In California.

[jlhoots]

Remember when we heard of the 1st cases of Covid in the US???

 

[Brad]

On 12/2/2021 at 8:01 PM, jlhoots said:

Remember when we heard of the 1st cases of Covid in the US???

 

Will we still be saying that in 10 years time?

On 12/1/2021 at 9:29 AM, JSngry said:

Covid has been like Viagra for Pfizer!

When the Covid news is bad and the market does poorly, Pfizer goes up, and vice versa. 

[Pim]

On 1-12-2021 at 11:37 PM, sonnymax said:

NBC News reports: Anti-vaccine Christian broadcaster Marcus Lamb dies at 64 after contracting Covid…In recent months, a number of prominent anti-vaccination Christian broadcasters have died from Covid-19. Conservative radio hosts Dick Farrell, Phil Valentine and Marc Bernier, who were unvaccinated, all died after they contracted Covid.

Must be a conspiracy

[sonnymax]

10 hours ago, Pim said:

Must be a conspiracy

Well, the article does mention that "Jonathan Lamb described his father's Covid infection as "a spiritual attack from the enemy" to "take down" Marcus Lamb."

[Shrdlu]

Stay tuned for the next Greek letter.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My wife works in a NH middle school and she's seeing a large number of kids out with COVID. It's the Thanksgiving bump. Next up will be the Christmas bump.

It seems like it might be just a matter of when she catches it from one of her kids, as NH's governor refuses to consider any measures to reduce the rate of infection. NH now ranks #1 among states for new cases per 100,000 people - 94.1 daily cases per 100K people. Maine, my state, is #2 at 76.1 per 100K.

[Rooster_Ties]

So, I got the one-shot Johnson & Johnson back the end of March (which, we know now, seems to diminish in protection enough after 2 months so as to qualify for booster-shots that you otherwise have to wait 6 months to get after either your initial Pfizer or Moderna double-shots).

Then I got a Moderna BOOSTER shot the week before Thanksgiving -- which is only HALF the dosage of a regular Moderna shot (and which, even at that half-dosage level, it still seems to be slightly stronger and/or longer-lasting than Pfizer).  I knew fully about the "half-dosage" thing about Moderna boosters before I got it, so my concern ISN'T about it being only a half-dosage.

All that said, I think I'm going to discuss with my primary care doctor about either getting a full-dosage Moderna shot (not a booster) -- or else a Pfizer booster (which I understand is the same as the initial Pfizer shots).  NOT immediately or anything, but in a few months -- whenever she feels would be safe and appropriate (and ethically sound, at least mostly).

I'm not loosing any sleep over all this -- but I just don't feel like I've gotten as fully inoculated as folks who got 3 Pfizers -- or what is effectively 2½ Moderna shots.

I probably couldn't go into CVS or Walgreens and get it, but my doctor's office also gives shots (only from your own doctor, so you have to make a special appointment -- you cant just get one of their nurse/techs or NP's to do it).  But with her blessing, maybe in February or March -- I'd like to "top off the tank" so to speak, since I'm not sure I ever got much more than half-a-tank to begin with.  I'm pretty sure they only do Pfizer shots, but that'd probably be OK (even if I'd prefer a full-strength Moderna), especially if I could get one in February.  Anyway, a conversation I think I'm going to introduce soon.

Any thoughts on this idea?

[mjazzg]

Omicron cases doubling every two days or less in London. Still too early to assess hospitalisations and severity over time of symptoms. Main concern at the moment is the sheer number of ill staff off work affecting services - health care, transport, logistics, food retail etc 

Edited December 15, 2021 by mjazzg

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

So, I got the one-shot Johnson & Johnson back the end of March (which, we know now, seems to diminish in protection enough after 2 months so as to qualify for booster-shots that you otherwise have to wait 6 months to get after either your initial Pfizer or Moderna double-shots).

Then I got a Moderna BOOSTER shot the week before Thanksgiving -- which is only HALF the dosage of a regular Moderna shot (and which, even at that half-dosage level, it still seems to be slightly stronger and/or longer-lasting than Pfizer).  I knew fully about the "half-dosage" thing about Moderna boosters before I got it, so my concern ISN'T about it being only a half-dosage.

All that said, I think I'm going to discuss with my primary care doctor about either getting a full-dosage Moderna shot (not a booster) -- or else a Pfizer booster (which I understand is the same as the initial Pfizer shots).  NOT immediately or anything, but in a few months -- whenever she feels would be safe and appropriate (and ethically sound, at least mostly).

I'm not loosing any sleep over all this -- but I just don't feel like I've gotten as fully inoculated as folks who got 3 Pfizers -- or what is effectively 2½ Moderna shots.

I probably couldn't go into CVS or Walgreens and get it, but my doctor's office also gives shots (only from your own doctor, so you have to make a special appointment -- you cant just get one of their nurse/techs or NP's to do it).  But with her blessing, maybe in February or March -- I'd like to "top off the tank" so to speak, since I'm not sure I ever got much more than half-a-tank to begin with.  I'm pretty sure they only do Pfizer shots, but that'd probably be OK (even if I'd prefer a full-strength Moderna), especially if I could get one in February.  Anyway, a conversation I think I'm going to introduce soon.

Any thoughts on this idea?

My thoughts are that you are not following the science.  You are boosted. Moderna's results have been proven to be the most robust, in all studies (I believe). I suspect your doctor is going to tell you to take a chill pill. But if they say "fine" and it floats your boat, have at it.

 

51 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Omicron cases doubling every two days or less in London. Still too early to assess hospitalisations and severity over time of symptoms. 

I read today that there is a new study showing that Omicron replicates in the lung much less efficiently than it does elsewhere, which might explain far fewer Omicron patients being on oxygen or respirators or having Covid pneumonia? 

I'll cop to worrying about what the coming weeks and months may bring in terms of spread but I am still hoping for a milder set of symptoms.  But its true that a very small percent of a huge number could be a catastrophic # of deaths.

Edit to add link to the study I mentioned

https://www.med.hku.hk/en/news/press/20211215-omicron-sars-cov-2-infection

Edited December 15, 2021 by Dan Gould

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

So, I got the one-shot Johnson & Johnson back the end of March (which, we know now, seems to diminish in protection enough after 2 months so as to qualify for booster-shots that you otherwise have to wait 6 months to get after either your initial Pfizer or Moderna double-shots).

Then I got a Moderna BOOSTER shot the week before Thanksgiving -- which is only HALF the dosage of a regular Moderna shot (and which, even at that half-dosage level, it still seems to be slightly stronger and/or longer-lasting than Pfizer).  I knew fully about the "half-dosage" thing about Moderna boosters before I got it, so my concern ISN'T about it being only a half-dosage.

All that said, I think I'm going to discuss with my primary care doctor about either getting a full-dosage Moderna shot (not a booster) -- or else a Pfizer booster (which I understand is the same as the initial Pfizer shots).  NOT immediately or anything, but in a few months -- whenever she feels would be safe and appropriate (and ethically sound, at least mostly).

I'm not loosing any sleep over all this -- but I just don't feel like I've gotten as fully inoculated as folks who got 3 Pfizers -- or what is effectively 2½ Moderna shots.

I probably couldn't go into CVS or Walgreens and get it, but my doctor's office also gives shots (only from your own doctor, so you have to make a special appointment -- you cant just get one of their nurse/techs or NP's to do it).  But with her blessing, maybe in February or March -- I'd like to "top off the tank" so to speak, since I'm not sure I ever got much more than half-a-tank to begin with.  I'm pretty sure they only do Pfizer shots, but that'd probably be OK (even if I'd prefer a full-strength Moderna), especially if I could get one in February.  Anyway, a conversation I think I'm going to introduce soon.

Any thoughts on this idea?

IMHO you should do it, if the doctor is willing.  The 6 month gap is probably too long; experts are discussing 4.5 - 5 months as better.

20 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

My thoughts are that you are not following the science.  You are boosted. Moderna's results have been proven to be the most robust, in all studies (I believe). I suspect your doctor is going to tell you to take a chill pill. But if they say "fine" and it floats your boat, have at it.

 

I read today that there is a new study showing that Omicron replicates in the lung much less efficiently than it does elsewhere, which might explain far fewer Omicron patients being on oxygen or respirators or having Covid pneumonia? 

I'll cop to worrying about what the coming weeks and months may bring in terms of spread but I am still hoping for a milder set of symptoms.  But its true that a very small percent of a huge number could be a catastrophic # of deaths.

Edit to add link to the study I mentioned

https://www.med.hku.hk/en/news/press/20211215-omicron-sars-cov-2-infection

It's hard to tell how much of the apparent Omicron mildness is due to:

1) Genuine underlying mildness of the variant

2) Greater mildness due to much higher prevalence of immunity (whether due to vaccination, prior infection or both)

3) "Greater mildness" because more immune people become mildly symptomatic rather than asymptomatic or non-infected

1 is good news for everyone.

2 is relatively good news for people who have immunity, but bad news for unvaccinated people who haven't had COVID yet.  (Though it probably varies among previously infected, 2-shot vaccinated and 3-shot vaccinated; also, kids are overrepresented in this group and they experience lower COVID severity on average.)

3 is bad news.

[Dan Gould]

The thing is Guy, that "immunity" hardly seems to exist for Omicron, whether from vaccinations, being boosted, being sick before, being sick before + vaccinated and boosted. 

What I wonder is whether Omicron shows so many variants on the spike because it really did go from humans back to the non-human species and then back to humans. Who is to say that in that process, something also changed for virulence?  That's the idea I am clinging to.

[Rooster_Ties]

15 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

My thoughts are that you are not following the science.  You are boosted. Moderna's results have been proven to be the most robust, in all studies (I believe). I suspect your doctor is going to tell you to take a chill pill. But if they say "fine" and it floats your boat, have at it.

Could be, I really don't know.  That's why I'm going to pose the question to my doctor a good 2-3 months before she (or even I) would actually want/"need" to get any sort of other shot.  Also, in the coming months, there'll hopefully be a small study -- or at least some data (beyond a handful of anecdotes) about actual infection rates -- and/or antibody levels -- among "J&J + one other non-J&J booster shot" people (like myself).

WHICH is why I want to get this on my doctor's radar now -- in case she or any of her collogues happen to run across any such data, or if they start to get inquiries similar to mine.

I agree, Moderna's results have been proven to be the most robust -- and even their "half-dose" booster seems (if I've read right) to be slightly stronger than Pfizer's full-strength shots (which is why I decided to get a Moderna booster anyway).  BUT, what that Moderna booster shot that I got in November, was 'boosting' a "good for two-months" J&J shot that I'd gotten 6½ months earlier.

And for the record, I'm NOT bitching about the strength and efficacy of the J&J shot.  The FDA determined it was safe, and effective to the extent that could be tested at the time -- and longer-term effectivity was impossible to know at that point.  As a nation, our marching orders were to get whatever you could get first, and I did -- with no regrets.

Maybe my idea doesn't have merit.  Maybe the Moderna booster I got was plenty.  I'm no medical expert.  It's just a reasonable idea that may or might not have merit.

[Guy Berger]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

The thing is Guy, that "immunity" hardly seems to exist for Omicron, whether from vaccinations, being boosted, being sick before, being sick before + vaccinated and boosted. 

What I wonder is whether Omicron shows so many variants on the spike because it really did go from humans back to the non-human species and then back to humans. Who is to say that in that process, something also changed for virulence?  That's the idea I am clinging to.

"Immunity hardly seems to exist for Omicron" isn't correct, respectfully.  Link

There's evidence that for *infection* (that is detectable by some sort of diagnostic, regardless of severity of symptoms), prior infection without vaccination or a "basic full vaccination" (1 dose of J&J or 2 doses of AZ/Moderna/Pfizer) provide weak or very weak protection against Omicron, though not necessarily zero.

However, there's also evidence that efficacy after 3 doses or hybrid immunity (prior infection + 2 doses) is much higher.

Additionally, it's important to remember that efficacy against infection is not the same as efficacy against serious illness - and it is likely that the latter is much higher.  (This is why the mildness of Omicron might simply turn out to be a mismeasurement illusion...)

[Dan Gould]

22 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

"Immunity hardly seems to exist for Omicron" isn't correct, respectfully.  Link

There's evidence that for *infection* (that is detectable by some sort of diagnostic, regardless of severity of symptoms), prior infection without vaccination or a "basic full vaccination" (1 dose of J&J or 2 doses of AZ/Moderna/Pfizer) provide weak or very weak protection against Omicron, though not necessarily zero.

However, there's also evidence that efficacy after 3 doses or hybrid immunity (prior infection + 2 doses) is much higher.

Additionally, it's important to remember that efficacy against infection is not the same as efficacy against serious illness - and it is likely that the latter is much higher.  (This is why the mildness of Omicron might simply turn out to be a mismeasurement illusion...)

I was defining immunity as from infection.

The gist of what seems to be the case is that Omicron possibly infects nearly everyone exposed, and makes them capable of infecting others, vaccinated/not vaccinated.  That's why its so rampant in most places. And perhaps, that is reflected in the study I linked, if it replicates easier in the bronchus, do sufferers expirate more virus, making it more infectious?

[Guy Berger]

26 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I was defining immunity as from infection.

The gist of what seems to be the case is that Omicron possibly infects nearly everyone exposed, and makes them capable of infecting others, vaccinated/not vaccinated.  That's why its so rampant in most places. And perhaps, that is reflected in the study I linked, if it replicates easier in the bronchus, do sufferers expirate more virus, making it more infectious?

I would not ignore the impact of high quality immunity (3 shots or hybrid) in reducing transmission, even if imperfect.

But you're right about the general assessment: whether due to "inherent" transmissibility or immune evasion, it's likely to infect a lot more people than prior variants in the same circumstances.

Thinking a little further ahead: an estimate from Trevor Bedford (a well regarded virologist or immunologist - don't remember which) was that once we reach endemicity, we'd have something like 40K-100K COVID deaths every year in the US.  The bright side is that's a lot less than 2020 or 2021, and hopefully we can get there relatively quickly.

The bad news is: it's equivalent to ranging from "moderate flu year" to "very bad flu year", on top of the actual flu of course (which kills an average of 36K Americans every year).  We're not going to zero or anything close to it.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Guy Berger

[jlhoots]

If you're not careful (whatever that means), you could have problems. We've had 2 1/2 Moderna shots. We'll do whatever it takes to try to be safe.

[Dan Gould]

7 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

If you're not careful (whatever that means), you could have problems. We've had 2 1/2 Moderna shots. We'll do whatever it takes to try to be safe.

I disagree ... people can be careful and they get infected and have a terrible or even catastrophic result.  And its not true that everyone who isn't careful will inevitably get infected/sick/ER.

[jlhoots]

38 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I disagree ... people can be careful and they get infected and have a terrible or even catastrophic result.  And its not true that everyone who isn't careful will inevitably get infected/sick/ER.

Well - I guess we should all stay home.