COVID-19 III: No Politics For Thee

[Brad]

Thinking about going to the dentist?

The Challenges of Pandemic Dental Care

[ejp626]

Making sure the base is covered.  From the Guardian but originally in NY Times:

Trump rally attendees can't sue if they contract virus

People attending an upcoming Donald Trump rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, have been told they cannot sue if they contract coronavirus. The sign-up page for the president’s upcoming rally includes a disclaimer about the possibility of contracting the disease.

The president has implemented a policy that states rally attendees cannot sue the campaign or venue if they contract coronavirus at the event, the New York Times reports:

‘By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to Covid-19 exists in any public place where people are present,’ a statement on Mr. Trump’s campaign website informed those wishing to attend his June 19 rally in Tulsa, Okla. ‘By attending the rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to Covid-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors or volunteers liable for any illness or injury.’

[Big Beat Steve]

22 hours ago, Brad said:

Thinking about going to the dentist?

The Challenges of Pandemic Dental Care

The article mentions a lot of important aspects.
My better half works as an assitant/dental hygienist (including prophylaxis as a main field of specialization) in a dentist's office so has been through all this since Day One of the Corona epidemy.

Importance of sterilization, disinfection, autoclave etc. (daily routine in every decent dental office), personal protective equipment used by the practitioner and his/her staff anyway (long before the Corona virus became a topic), yet practitoners and staff usually being exposed to more of a risk than the patients, particularly through aerosols (dear patients, what you you think: Are these aerosols during treatment propelled out of YOUR mouth towards the doctor or vice versa?), enhanced protective measures, etc.
And just think again, dear patients: Can you imagine the kind of risk caused in these close-up work situations where invariably parts of your dental structure and gum are touched that may release blood and other matter, regardless of how careful the treatment and surgery is, even before Corona came up? (AIDS, hepatitis, whatnot ... ) Wouldn't you think that it therefore is in the very own personal interest of any dentist and the staff to use a maximum of safety and precautionary measures and equipment?

And yet - the very nature of a dentist's job dictates that "safety" distances such as the 1.5 or 2 meters imposed elsewhere just CANNOT be maintained (when did you last see a doctor or an assistant with arms that measure 2 meters in length and eyes that pop out of the doctor's head across any distance just to be able to see what's going on in the patient's mouth?). Still it sometimes (actually not just sometimes) is mindboggling what kind of patients you get anyway. It happened more than once that my better half had to explain at extreme lengths to patients (even some who had already appeared in the office and sat down on the chair, and including some who had been patients of the doctor for a long time and ought know everything about the care exercised there day in day out in every respect), how certain safety measures (that they had read about - but apparently without understanding the nature of dental work) were implemented, how this and that was put into practice, how this or that situation was handled, etc. etc., and either this all was standard everyday practice then office anyway or just was a matter of either giving in to that "safety" distances not being maintained at ALL moments or not receiving treatment. Eventually the doctor was called in and she had to explain everything AGAIN. Be through this a couple of times and you'd like to quit your job for good. And then, another recent occurence involved a patient who ACTUALLy came in, sat down on the chair, face mask still on, and when asked to remove it, flat out refused! (I kid you not!!) Asked again, still refused, quibbling about this or that matter of principle concerning face masks, OK, so be on your merrry way, dear patient and go see another doctor who manages to treat you with your face mask still on! WTF??? The world seems to go beserk. From what she tells me, I think every now and then the highest compliment paid to her (and her work) under the current circumstances was patients saying how glad they were they were able to come to that place where things were handled in a responsible yet down-to-earth, reasonable and rational manner without going hysterically overboard. 

So please, to anyone out there still feeling uneasy about going to see a dentist in these times: Use some goddamn common sense out there, will ya? Or bear the pain.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Big Beat Steve

[Brad]

1 hour ago, ejp626 said:

Making sure the base is covered.  From the Guardian but originally in NY Times:

Trump rally attendees can't sue if they contract virus

People attending an upcoming Donald Trump rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, have been told they cannot sue if they contract coronavirus. The sign-up page for the president’s upcoming rally includes a disclaimer about the possibility of contracting the disease.

The president has implemented a policy that states rally attendees cannot sue the campaign or venue if they contract coronavirus at the event, the New York Times reports:

‘By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to Covid-19 exists in any public place where people are present,’ a statement on Mr. Trump’s campaign website informed those wishing to attend his June 19 rally in Tulsa, Okla. ‘By attending the rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to Covid-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors or volunteers liable for any illness or injury.’

To paraphrase Lincoln (from his Second Inaugural Address), fondly do we hope ~ fervently do we pray ~ that this mighty scourge may speedily pass away.

5 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

The article mentions a lot of important aspects.
My better half works as an assitant/dental hygienist (including prophylaxis as a main field of specialization) in a dentist's office so has been through all this since Day One of the Corona epidemy.

Importance of sterilization, disinfection, autoclave etc. (daily routine in every decent dental office), personal protective equipment used by the practitioner and his/her staff anyway (long before the Corona virus became a topic), yet practitoners and staff usually being exposed to more a risk than the patients, particularly through aerosols (dear patients, what you you think: Are these aerosols during treatment flying out of YOUR mouth towards the doctor or vice versa?), enhanced protective measures, etc.
And just think again, dear patients: Can you imagine the kind of risk caused in these close-up work situations where invariably part sof your dental structure and gum are touched that may release blood and other matter, regardless of how careful the treatment and surgery is? (AIDS, hepatitis, whatnot ...) Wouldn't you think that it is in the very own personal interest of any dentist and the staff to use a maximum of safety and precautionary measures and equipment?

And yet - the very nature of a dentist's job dictates that "security" distances such a the 1.5 or 2 meters imposed elsewhere just CANNOT be maintained (when did you last see a doctor or an assistant with arms that measure 2 meters in length and eyes that pop out of the doctor's heasd at any distance just tobe able to see what's going on in the patient's mouth?). Still it sometimes (actually not just sometimes) is mindboggling what kind of patients you get anyway. It happened more than once that my better half had to explain at extreme lengths to patients (even some who had already appeared in the office and sat down on the chair, and including some who had been patients of the doctor for a long time and ought know everything about the care exercised there in every respect), how certain safety measures (that they had read about - but apparently without understanding the nature of dental work) were implemented, how this and that was put into practice, how this or that situation was handled, etc. etc., and either this all was standard everyday practice then office anyway or just was a matter of either giving in to that "safety" distances not being maintained at ALL moments or not recieving treatment. Eventually the doctor was called in and she had to explain everything AGAIN. Be through this a couple of times and you'd like to quit your job for good. And then, another recent occurence involved a patient who ACTUALLy came in, sat down on the chair, face mask still on, and when asked to remove it, flat out refused! (I kid you not!!) Asked again, still refused, quibbling about this or that matter of principle concerning face masks, OK, so be on your merrry way, dear patient and go see another doctor who manages to treat you with your face mask still on! WTF??? The world seems to go beserk. From what she tells me, I think every now and then the highest compliment paid to her (and her work) was patients saying how glad they were they were able to come to that place where things were handled in a responsible yet down-to-earth, reasonable and rational manner without going hysterically overboard. 

So please, to anyone out there still feeling uneasy about going to see a dentist in these times: Use some goddamn common sense out there, will ya? Or bear the pain.

My dentist has a procedure in effect and my appointment is July 17. https://c1-preview.prosites.com/84300/wy/docs/Dentistry%20of%20Mendham%20COVID%20Reopen%20Plan%20(1)%20(1)%20(1).pdf

Edited June 12, 2020 by Brad

[Big Beat Steve]

Most of that is in effect at the office where my wife works too. To the best of my knowledge, minus the "wait-in-car" thing (although it is a small office they have installed a procedure where patients do not usually cross paths with each other when arriving and leaving and time remains for disinfection in between) and the thermometer (they handle the problem of potential risk patients differently through some up-front checkbacks but I don't have the details).

 

[sidewinder]

Local dentists are just opening up but it is only limited super-urgent cases at present and limited treatments. 

[Brad]

40 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Most of that is in effect at the office where my wife works too. To the best of my knowledge, minus the "wait-in-car" thing (although it is a small office they have installed a procedure where patients do not usually cross paths with each other when arriving and leaving and time remains for disinfection in between) and the thermometer (they handle the problem of potential risk patients differently through some up-front checkbacks but I don't have the details).

 

I had an appointment with my cardiologist last week and you had to wait in the car until they were ready for you and once you were finished, you left by an exit separate from the entrance so you wouldn’t cross paths with anyone else. You had to call to make a follow up appointment. 

[ejp626]

49 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Most of that is in effect at the office where my wife works too. To the best of my knowledge, minus the "wait-in-car" thing (although it is a small office they have installed a procedure where patients do not usually cross paths with each other when arriving and leaving and time remains for disinfection in between) and the thermometer (they handle the problem of potential risk patients differently through some up-front checkbacks but I don't have the details).

 

In Toronto, I believe urgent dental care is now being provided and they are starting to make appointments for general cleaning/check-ups.  I'll probably schedule something soon.

I am glad that the orthodontists are starting to see patients, as it can be a problem to not check up on the various adjustments in treatment.  My daughter went this week, and my wife had to wait outside the office.  Of course because coffee shops, etc. are all closed, she ended up walking up and down the street for half an hour.  Maybe this hasn't really been thought through, or they are just making these policies somebody's else's problem... 

We've been able to start returning books to the libraries, and you can sign up for a 10 minute slot to pick up books from the hold system, but you can't go in and browse the books.  I'm a little bit worried about people getting there early and hanging out around the library (as it is pretty hard to time a 10 minute slot!), but we'll just have to see how it goes.  It's a small thing, but it's still kind of exciting.

 

[Soulstation1]

Since May 1st

CV up almost 300% in Arizona 

almost all hospital beds filled 

[Dave Garrett]

On 6/10/2020 at 0:39 AM, Brad said:

I’m not sure that’s what Hofstadter was referring to. Intellectualism is “accepts conflict as a central and enduring reality and understands human society as a form of equipoise based upon the continuing process of compromise. It shuns ultimate showdowns and looks upon the ideal of total partisan victory as unattainable, as merely another variety of threat to the kind of balance with which it is familiar. It is sensitive to nuances and sees things in degrees. It is essentially relativist and skeptical, but at the same time circumspect and humane.”

To Hofstadter “intellectualism is not at all the same thing as intelligence or devotion to a particular set of ideas. It is a distinctive habit of mind and thought that actually forbids the kind of complete self-assurance that we often associate with very smart or committed people.”

I read it many years ago.  Not an easy read. See The Tea Party is timeless Richard Hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism In American Life reviewed, from which the above were taken. 

Thanks for the link, an interesting review. I think this quote from it sums up the point I was trying to make: "Hofstadter definitely does not see anti-intellectualism as the corrupting serpent in the American Eden. Instead, as he demonstrates, it has been deeply ingrained in the national culture from the very beginning."

I don't think his concept of intellectualism as nuanced and ever-conflicted is necessarily at odds with the concepts I was responding to, but like you, it's been many years since I read it, and you know the old saying about memory being the first thing to go... 

[Brad]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:17 AM, ejp626 said:

Making sure the base is covered.  From the Guardian but originally in NY Times:

Trump rally attendees can't sue if they contract virus

People attending an upcoming Donald Trump rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, have been told they cannot sue if they contract coronavirus. The sign-up page for the president’s upcoming rally includes a disclaimer about the possibility of contracting the disease.

The president has implemented a policy that states rally attendees cannot sue the campaign or venue if they contract coronavirus at the event, the New York Times reports:

‘By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to Covid-19 exists in any public place where people are present,’ a statement on Mr. Trump’s campaign website informed those wishing to attend his June 19 rally in Tulsa, Okla. ‘By attending the rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to Covid-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors or volunteers liable for any illness or injury.’

This liability waiver has raised a lot of controversy, probably because it relates to the president, but his campaign is by no means the only organization asking  for one. See Businesses Want Virus Legal Protection. Workers Are Worried

If I’m an employer, I definitely would want these protections, an employee not so much.  Notwithstanding whether you have these protections in place, when people go out in public, whether to a gym, salon or restaurant, you are assuming the risk that you may get the virus.  If an employer or other business has used reasonable precautions to keep the area cleaned, they should be immune from lawsuits.  We are a litigious society so that doesn’t prevent anyone from bringing a lawsuit if they wish to do so and I’m sure defendants will raise the assumption of the risk defense.  As respects the employer employee relationship, many states (Including NY and NJ) follow the employment at will doctrine, which means you can be fired for any reason or no reason.  If any employee refuses to sign a waiver they could, at the employer’s discretion, be terminated.  This is an issue that is not going away. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Brad

[ejp626]

I'm well aware of that.  Businesses need to do what they reasonably can, but will inevitably be sued anyway when people catch COVID.  Probably most of the time they will not be held liable (for one the difficulty in proving a person caught COVID from a specific store) but it's always a gamble with juries and, no matter what, dealing with the legal system is draining.  However, it is one thing to cautiously open up and have reasonable protocols in place.  It is another to be encouraging rallies where, even if outdoors, there will be lots of bad behaviour from people not social distancing (particularly among right wing populist followers who seem to take special pride in not following medical guidance).  So it really is a perfect storm for virus transmission, and the people involved should know better but just don't care, so then they slap on this legal fig leaf.

No point in dwelling any further on it.

Museums in B.C. getting ready to open.  Definitely jealous.  The Toronto area is about two weeks behind the rest of Ontario in terms of loosened restrictions, but the signs are positive that the new infection rates are dropping and deaths from COVID are pretty low, as these things go.  Our medical system was never overwhelmed and that was really the main benefit of the lockdown.  I think there's a reasonable chance we'll have barber shops, salons and hopefully museums open by July.  Still not sure what schools will look like in Sept.

[Brad]

 

57 minutes ago, ejp626 said:

the people involved should know better but just don't care, so then they slap on this legal fig leaf.

Since they don’t care, the campaign doesn’t really need the release as the people going are willingly assuming the risk. I’m sure some will sue anyway. 

[JSngry]

 

[Brad]

1 hour ago, bresna said:

The businesses that need to worry about lawsuits are the ones like my local hardware store, where it is being reported that 13 employees contracted the virus and one, a 30 year-old, died from it. They never closed the place for an hour, never mind two weeks, like most businesses that had an outbreak.

By the way, I was going to this store occasionally in a an effort to support a local business, but stopped when I heard about this outbreak. This was a small hardware store where social distancing is very hard, if not impossible, and it still bothers me that they had an outbreak among their employees and subjected me and my wife to potential exposure just to go buy birdfood for the feeder.

Did they take any precautions and require masks?

[Brad]

1 hour ago, bresna said:

Not until after the word got out.

That’s bad. 

[JSngry]

[bigbandrecord]

11 hours ago, bresna said:

The businesses that need to worry about lawsuits are the ones like my local hardware store, where it is being reported that 13 employees contracted the virus and one, a 30 year-old, died from it. They never closed the place for an hour, never mind two weeks, like most businesses that had an outbreak.

By the way, I was going to this store occasionally in a an effort to support a local business, but stopped when I heard about this outbreak. This was a small hardware store where social distancing is very hard, if not impossible, and it still bothers me that they had an outbreak among their employees and subjected me and my wife to potential exposure just to go buy birdfood for the feeder.

  Businesses cannot be sued for someone allegedly catching covid on there property/premises or for allegedly catching any other airborne disease.    There is no such law or basis for a lawsuit for allegedly catching covid or any other airborne disease  unless someone knowingly has it and willfully infects somebody individually. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by bigbandrecord

[Brad]

3 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

  Businesses cannot be sued for someone allegedly catching covid on there property/premises or for allegedly catching any other airborne disease.    There is no such law or basis for a lawsuit for allegedly catching covid or any other airborne disease  unless someone knowingly has it and willfully infects somebody individually. 

Whether or not claims set forth on a lawsuit are actionable remains to be seen. Notwithstanding whether is a basis for these lawsuits, many lawsuits have been filed (and will be continued to be filed).  

[ghost of miles]

So much for hydroxychloroquine:

FDA revokes authorization of drug Trump touted

[Brad]

I went to B & N today since retail businesses can open today. The little mall in which it’s located is packed. I was surprised. On the other hand, the big mall is empty. 

[Guy Berger]

The situation seems to be getting a lot worse, fast, in large parts of the Southeast and Southwest.  I hope everyone out here stays safe - even if your state/local government is encouraging reckless behavior that will cost lives, you can be proactive and safe.

[Coda]

20 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

So much for hydroxychloroquine:

FDA revokes authorization of drug Trump touted

They've also stopped hloroquine phosphate for the same reasons.   And in a separate article by the FDA, remdesivir will also likley get the same.  

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-warns-newly-discovered-potential-drug-interaction-may-reduce

 

[Brad]

Virus? What virus?

 

[catesta]