Potential Undocumented Charlie Parker Recording

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, jabird said:

No idea who any of them are.  That's what im trying to figure out.  The red says "orig." which im assuming stands for original.

Is there anything in the dead wax?

It almost sounds "local", maybe youthful even, like a local bunch of striving/aspirational beboppers, quite possible young-ish,. There's SO many horns, and the heads are pretty sloppy in points. And the bari player...I can't think of anybody "name" of the time who played bari in such an overtly Prez-ian manner, especially in terms of tone.

Whoever it is, though, they're closer to being there than not!

I wonder how far-removed in spirit (or location?!?!?!) it is from that George Davis thing? That was a trip!

[Spontooneous]

Hi there, jabird. Thanks for posting and letting us hear these. They're delightful.

I'm going to join the chorus that says it isn't Charlie Parker. It's a group of highly devoted and skilled young players, likely from Kansas City but perhaps from somewhere else in the Midwest, who paid Damon to make a test record of their good band. And for the session, they chose a couple of their favorite Parker tunes.

Just guessing by the style of the performance, I'd say it comes from the early to mid 1950s.

Oh, if they had only put their names on the label...

Acetate discs cut by Damon show up at estate sales, thrift stores, etc., around Kansas City with some frequency. I think he was cutting acetate discs for people into the '60s.

I'd bet that Parker authority Chuck Haddix at the UMKC library would agree that it isn't Bird but that it's a wonderful band and a beautiful slice of history. You might have a hard time reaching Chuck through UMKC these days, but you can find him on Facebook.

[Brad]

51 minutes ago, Spontooneous said:

Hi there, jabird. Thanks for posting and letting us hear these. They're delightful.

I'm going to join the chorus that says it isn't Charlie Parker. It's a group of highly devoted and skilled young players, likely from Kansas City but perhaps from somewhere else in the Midwest, who paid Damon to make a test record of their good band. And for the session, they chose a couple of their favorite Parker tunes.

Just guessing by the style of the performance, I'd say it comes from the early to mid 1950s.

Oh, if they had only put their names on the label...

Acetate discs cut by Damon show up at estate sales, thrift stores, etc., around Kansas City with some frequency. I think he was cutting acetate discs for people into the '60s.

I'd bet that Parker authority Chuck Haddix at the UMKC library would agree that it isn't Bird but that it's a wonderful band and a beautiful slice of history. You might have a hard time reaching Chuck through UMKC these days, but you can find him on Facebook.

I thought that because the disc bears the legend Audition, it might have been someone showing Damon they could play.

I sent a message to Chuck Haddix vía FB earlier today but haven’t heard back. 

[Quasimado]

Interesting thread - no word from Chuck Haddix?

[jabird]

Hey @Quasimado, OP here.  I've kinda gone dark on this whole thing.  I've been unable to confirm or get anything solid from any reputable source.  I don't have any deep knowledge on the subject, so I'm kinda just stopped in my tracks.  Maybe i'll pursue it again some years down the road...

[Brad]

40 minutes ago, Quasimado said:

Interesting thread - no word from Chuck Haddix?

Never heard from him. 

[Quasimado]

9 hours ago, jabird said:

Hey @Quasimado, OP here.  I've kinda gone dark on this whole thing.  I've been unable to confirm or get anything solid from any reputable source.  I don't have any deep knowledge on the subject, so I'm kinda just stopped in my tracks.  Maybe i'll pursue it again some years down the road...

Good topic - an acetate like that is certainly worth following up - some great research on your part - hopefully Chuck Haddix will come through.

[jabird]

Thanks @Quasimado, I definitely learned a lot about jazz I didn't know before :).  

[John L]

Very interesting record.   I agree that it is not Charlie Parker.  The rhythmic feel is different.  But it's good. 

[Brad]

I heard from Chuck Haddix today. He said he has information on the recordings and said he will send me an email. 

[Quasimado]

Interesting - look forward to seeing that.

[Brad]

Here is the email I just received from Chuck:

“The discs were recorded by Vic Damon probably in Nov. 1943 when Bird was in town playing with the Winston Williams band at Tootie's Mayfair.  Damon operated the main recording studio in town.  Guitarist Effrege Ware was a friend of Bird's.  Little Phil Phillips was Bird's connection and a local drummer.  Phil later lost his mind and was committed to a mental hospital in St. Joseph Missouri.  Norman Saks owns the discs.  We have the Vic Damon Collection.  His recording log is available online. https://library.umkc.edu/archival-collections/damon”

If you have further questions I can relay them to him and see if he answers. 

[jabird]

Wow Brad, it's awesome to see a post on this thread. This was just a little adventure of mine about 5 months ago that fizzled out because noone could give me a solid answer. I just kinda threw the vinyl in a drawer and forgot about it. 

 

Could you please help me understand the response more?  Is he saying it is parker along with identifying the other musicians?

 

Looking forward to your response. This is awesome!

[jazzbo]

If you remove the quotation mark from the link Brad provided it will lead to a page where you can download the pdf of the ledger.  

Edited August 24, 2020 by jazzbo

[John L]

So this means that Bird was playing Relaxin' in Camarillo four years before he relaxed in Camarillo?  

I believe that Haddix is referring to this session, certainly not the source of the music in question,

[Return to 1940s sessions]

Autumn 1943 (4 items; TT = 13:33)

Vic Damon Studio, Kansas City KS

Private recording (Acetate) (C)

 

Charlie Parker (as); Efferge Ware (g); "Little" Phil Phillips (d)

1	Cherokee (R. Noble)	3:08
2	My Heart Tells Me (Should I Believe My Heart?) (M. Gordon-H. Warren)	3:16
3	I Found a New Baby (J. Palmer-S. Williams)	3:29
4	Body and Soul (J.W. Green-E. Heyman-R. Sour-F. Eyton)	3:40

 

[JSngry]

The tune was originally called "A Rolex at Carmichael's" but then Ross Russell made him change the name.

One more way that a white guy tried to change music through a black man.

One more way.

[Brad]

3 hours ago, jabird said:

Could you please help me understand the response more?  Is he saying it is parker along with identifying the other musicians?

I asked the same question and he said “they are recordings of Bird. A very stripped down version. I have seen the labels.” 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Brad

[Niko]

sounds to me like he looked at the discs but didn't listen to them... (jabird provided the link to those Damon logbooks already on the first page of this thread)

[Quasimado]

Agree with John L and Niko.

[Dan Gould]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:39 PM, Brad said:

Never heard from him. 

He might as well have left it that way because his response indicates that he didn't care to look into the mystery at all, certainly didn't listen to the samples since it ain't "stripped down Bird" and if its still not Bird it has to be recorded after whatever date Relaxin' at Camarillo appeared in the market.  If it really is 1943 then it has to be Bird, and I don't recall ever hearing that "Relaxin' ..." wasn't a new tune at the time it was recorded.

[Brad]

Following the above posts, I contacted Chuck and there may have been some misunderstanding as he said that “I don’t know about the Relaxin’ at Camarillo side.  I was referring to the Cherokee and the other sides recorded by Damon in 1943.”

He later indicated that he listened to the clips and that he didn’t think it was Bird as the music lacked “Bird’s richness of tone.”

[Niko]

what seems pretty clear is that the labelling of this particular record occurred after Parker's return from Camarillo in January 1947 - otherwise the title doesn't make sense... (put differently: even if the composition was around before, it certainly wasn't called Relaxin at Camarillo... it was apparently sometimes called "Past Due"). Given that we are dealing with an acetate that was  most likely produced right after the session, it seems safe to date this after the Dial session of February 26 1947...

[medjuck]

On 8/23/2020 at 10:48 AM, Brad said:

Here is the email I just received from Chuck:

“The discs were recorded by Vic Damon probably in Nov. 1943 when Bird was in town playing with the Winston Williams band at Tootie's Mayfair.  Damon operated the main recording studio in town.  Guitarist Effrege Ware was a friend of Bird's.  Little Phil Phillips was Bird's connection and a local drummer.  Phil later lost his mind and was committed to a mental hospital in St. Joseph Missouri.  Norman Saks owns the discs.  We have the Vic Damon Collection.  His recording log is available online. https://library.umkc.edu/archival-collections/damon”

If you have further questions I can relay them to him and see if he answers. 

I think I'm missing something (often the case).  I don't see anything in the logs for 1943 that mention Bird or any of the other players. 

[Niko]

same here, I couldn't find anything in the logs, no reference to that session with Bird which has been around for years, no reference to that Big Bob Dougherty recording that carries the same label... then again, the document does look a bit messy... those 1943(?) Parker recordings are out there and they sound totally different, clearly before (most of) bop happened

 

 

 

it's a really nice session actually

[JSngry]

Efferge Ware was who Bird was working with at the time of the "Harlem Chili-House Breakthrough", right?