Tito Puente in the 1940' and 1950's

[mikeweil]

I will stick to the LPs in roughly chronological order. But give me time. Puente's music is heavy stuff, and I need to listen to other things inbetween to avoid getting nervous from all that flaming brass.

[mikeweil]

Still finding and learning new thingss and tracks. 

The short "outtake" of Four Beat Cha Cha" is on a "Best Of ..." CD that I was able to order but will only get in two weeks.

There is a "Best Of Dance Mania" CD that includes several outtakes not found in the Deluxe double CD of these two albums:

The CD "Hong Kong Mambo" really is a re-titled "Dance Mania" with two outtakes added, one of these never was issued anywhere else. The subtitle "The RCA Years, Vol.1 raises expectations that never were fulfilled.

I finally decided to get me a copy of Joe Conzo's book, and do not regret it. In fact I find it a much more satisfying and informative read than Powell's book. The "discography" is a joke, just listing albums, but at least it led me to the last of the three CDs I just mentioned. 

[Adam]

On 7/30/2020 at 0:53 PM, mikeweil said:

"I tend to think that the people responsible for the two box sets didn't really care or whatever - if they had wanted to do the job right, the data were all there, they just have had to invest some research hours!"

I believe that there is a not-so-subtle discrimination built into issues and reissues of Latin jazz, "salsa", mambo, etc.  There is often/usually a lack of info, a paucity of tracks, feeble remastering.  I think it is due to people at companies believing that anyone who buys these won't care, so why should they.  If non-white non-Euro-Americans buying:  why worry about the details?

 

 

 

 

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, Adam said:

I believe that there is a not-so-subtle discrimination built into issues and reissues of Latin jazz, "salsa", mambo, etc.  There is often/usually a lack of info, a paucity of tracks, feeble remastering.  I think it is due to people at companies believing that anyone who buys these won't care, so why should they.  If non-white non-Euro-Americans buying:  why worry about the details?

Could well be. The picture is really inconsistent. The majority of reissues has no complete credits and dates, but there are a few listing them. 

I'm currently reading Max Salazar's book, Mambo Kingdom, which I heartily recommend as basic introduction into the US Latin music scene from the early 20th century on. He tells about a warehouse holding the archive of Gabriel Oller, one of the most important figures in promoting and recording the music. His nephew knew nothing about the value of the thousands of 78rpm and contracts with full details his uncle has kept, had it all dumped and the building demolished. A devastating story.

[Teasing the Korean]

On 4/28/2020 at 0:41 PM, mikeweil said:

Puente In Percussion

Puente's last effort for Tico was the only session conceived for LP release - recorded most likely in 1955 and issued on 12" LP in 1956. There were many reissues with at least three cover designs, as this is a classic of Afro-Cuban percussion, a textbook of improvisations for timbales, bongos, and congas, accompanied only by a string bass. All the participating musicians spoke only with praise about this. Tito Puente (timbales), Mongo Santamaria (congas, bongos, timbales), Carlos "Patato" Valdez (congas), Willie Bobo (guiro, bongos, timbales) - the bassist was not identified, but with all probability it was Roberto "Bobby" Rodriguez. Josephine Powell mentions him when she writes about the session, and also lists Candido, but I do not know of any other source saying that he was on the session, and the solos sound like Mongo and Patato, but not like Candido.

This album has eluded me.  How would you say it compares to the RCA Top Percussion, or at least to side 2 of Top Percussion? (Side 1 of the latter has drums and chanting.)

Edited June 10, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[HutchFan]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

This album has eluded me.  How would say it compares to the RCA Top Percussion, or at least to side 2 of Top Percussion? (Side 1 of the latter has drums and chanting.)

TTK,

I only picked up Puente in Percussion recently, so these are still-evolving impressions.  But I would say that Puente in Percussion compares VERY favorably with Top Percussion.  I may even prefer the Tico album over the RCA.

One aside: The cover on my Tico CD reissue is different than the illustration above.  The cover I have is shown below:

Note the pneumatic jackhammer resting on the chair.  A play for humor, I guess.  

 

Steven Loza's book about Puente (below) discusses how Tito kept pestering Tico management to record an all-percussion album. Over and over and over again.  They figured the record would be a money loser, but finally they relented -- if only so he'd stop bothering them about it.  That's how Puente in Percussion came about -- only because Puente REALLY wanted to make it.

Edited June 10, 2021 by HutchFan

[Teasing the Korean]

7 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

TTK,

I only picked up Puente in Percussion recently, so these are still-evolving impressions.  But I would say that Puente in Percussion compares VERY favorably with Top Percussion.  I may even prefer the Tico album over the RCA.

One aside: The cover on my Tico CD reissue is different than the illustration above.  The cover I have is shown below:

Note the pneumatic jackhammer resting on the chair.  A play for humor, I guess.  

Steven Loza's book about Puente (below) discusses how Tito kept pestering Tico/Roulette management to record an all-percussion album. Over and over and over again.  They figured the record would be a money loser, but finally they relented -- if only so he'd stop bothering them about it.  That's how Puente in Percussion came about -- only because Puente REALLY wanted to make it.

Thank you!  Is the Tico CD reissue by Fania?

[HutchFan]

Just now, Teasing the Korean said:

Thank you!  Is the Tico CD reissue by Fania?

The disc looks like this:

It says "1996 Fania Records" -- but there's no Fania logo.  Only the Tico logo.

 

BTW, it looks like I got lucky with this CD.  I found it in a local shop for $5. 

There's only one CD listing on discogs, and the asking price is $33.98.  

 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

TTK,

I only picked up Puente in Percussion recently, so these are still-evolving impressions.  But I would say that Puente in Percussion compares VERY favorably with Top Percussion.  I may even prefer the Tico album over the RCA.

 

This, only more than "may". But good luck finding any "reasonably" priced LP or CD these days...your best bet (other than lucking out like HutchFan did or else calling on Everybody's Best Friend - The Internet) is to look for this 1978 version:

I knew a percussionist back in the late 70s who was paid large bread for for the OG Tico, just before this reissue came out, so it already had a cult following. It's long been a coveted record, although I think more among musicians than the "general public". But it's more "on point" in that regard than is Top Percussion, not by a WHOLE lot, but enough to make a difference.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

It's on Qobuz for $10.49. 

[JSngry]

I love the Disc-O-Mat sticker on that pic, btw. I went there one time, forget where in NYC it was (remember now- 7th Ave), but one of those places that had records out the ass, all kinds of records, but "Latin" was sort of their specialty. The whole third floor was Latin, iirc, the had an entire floor dedicated to Latin music!) Picked up some PanArt sides (American pressings, of course), but I found out later that Disc-O-Mat was kinda the place you went to for Latin records if you didn't have a good local joint right on your block and. Or even if you did, you went there for back catalog and shit. That kind of place.

Disc-O-Mat would have been the PERFECT place to pick up a 1978 reissue of a 1956 Tito Puente Tico record.

10 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

It's on Qobuz for $10.49. 

What is that, streaming?

ah, ok, one of those stream or download place, like iTunes only French, right?

[JSngry]

Not some place I would look (can't imagine ever having any Quobuz stories to bore the grandkids with, but every generation sacrifices), but yeah, there it is. Seems to be legit too, right?

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/puente-in-percussion-tito-puente/sacs7kwxwj3nb

[Teasing the Korean]

11 hours ago, JSngry said:

Not some place I would look (can't imagine ever having any Quobuz stories to bore the grandkids with, but every generation sacrifices), but yeah, there it is. Seems to be legit too, right?

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/puente-in-percussion-tito-puente/sacs7kwxwj3nb

Surprised you don't know about this site in 2021.  Unlike iTunes or Amazon, it offers downloads in CD-quality and, in some cases, in hi-res.  It includes releases that are legit, that are grey market, and others that neither you nor I will ever know are legit or not.  

Of course, they are at the mercy of whatever the labels provide.  For example, an RCA album from the 1960s, which has long eluded me, was available from Sony Legacy, but it was a bad needle drop.  

Live and learn.

[JSngry]

 

31 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Surprised you don't know about this site in 2021.  Unlike iTunes or Amazon, it offers downloads in CD-quality and, in some cases, in hi-res.  It includes releases that are legit, that are grey market, and others that neither you nor I will ever know are legit or not.  

Of course, they are at the mercy of whatever the labels provide.  For example, an RCA album from the 1960s, which has long eluded me, was available from Sony Legacy, but it was a bad needle drop.  

Live and learn.

Kinda heard of it, I'm just not yet hungry for paying for downloads, of even high quality. I see the market moving towards either hi-res DL and either no physical format or else a shiny LP object, but as long as there's physical CDs on the market (new or used) and, of course, used LPs out there hiding away like a good dog in the shelter just waiting for a good hime, that's mostly where I'll look. And of course, the shared rarities that friends (known and imagined) share through the Magic Rays of 0s & 1s.

But - looking at that Puente offering, it seems that they got the permission from the Craft Company (famous for fine dairy products for over half a century, at least!), and are giving a good, CD offering. If I was going to do that type of thing, that's definitely the way I'd do it. Legit, and quality. And I'll move when I have to, like I did with CDs vs LPs. Not moving backwards, tho.

Still, what I REALLY want is an OG LP of that Tico side...love the cover, love the label, loved holding it in my hands and getting lost in the design and font, letting the music of the visual play in my mind. But such is not likely to be my fate, not at those prices! And even if I could afford it, it's still an object, like a baseball card. The music is the player, the record jacket is the baseball card.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Still, what I REALLY want is an OG LP of that Tico side...love the cover, love the label, loved holding it in my hands and getting lost in the design and font, letting the music of the visual play in my mind. But such is not likely to be my fate, not at those prices! And even if I could afford it, it's still an object, like a baseball card. The music is the player, the record jacket is the baseball card.

Yes, I am very much with you in this regard.  I have thousands of LPs, and really enjoy the full tactile experience - the artwork, the label design, the distinctive aroma of 1950s Mercury LPs, the rituals of cleaning the LP and the stylus, uncorking the bottle of wine, watching the tone arm slowly lower onto the LP as I take my first sip. 

That said, there are LPs and CDs that are out of my price range, and I'm running out of space.  High-quality downloads of those albums are getting more and more appealing. 

[JSngry]

I don't "enjoy" the rituals, never have (except for when I smoked a lot of weed and got into staring at covers and watching labels rotate - Capitol Swirl 45s were dangerous in that regard - but that was a stoned thing, not a music thing)...but I do very much enjoy the artwork, full size, and the smells as well, as long as they aren't that of must...there's music in those senses as well as the auditory ones.

One label I keep an eye on for new releases is New Amsterdam (niche music, but often very good), and I notice that more and more, their new releases are download only. There's a new record featuring Roomful Of Teeth that is DL only, and...I'll probably do it, but not right away. Just not feeling the love for getting a new record like that as the only option. Kinda feels like I'm being asked to work the pressing plant and THEN take the record home. But in the end....music.

 

[HutchFan]

Another enjoyable aspect of physical objects -- whether CD or LP -- is the pleasure of flipping through the bins at record stores and discovering new things you've never seen before or finally coming across things you've wanted for a long while.  The "potluck" aspect of it is definitely part of the equation for me.

Don't get me wrong: The internet allows us to think "I'd like that," press a few buttons, and it's on its way.  That's great.

But the hunt, the fun of stumbling across things -- "Yes!!! Look what I found!" -- is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

I finally went back into a HPB the other Saturday, first time in over a year, and the supply was really depressing. They had obviously sold some stuff during the Covid Peak, but if they took in a lot of inventory....small sample size, and looking to be disproved as outward excursions return to normalcy.

What I really need is for some sociopathic germophobic big-collection person to walk up one day and think, hey, I breathed on all these records, I might be breeding a new variant, I better get these outta here. I know, HALF PRICE!!!!

[Bluesnik]

6 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Don't get me wrong: The internet allows us to think "I'd like that," press a few buttons, and it's on its way.  That's great.

But the hunt, the fun of stumbling across things -- "Yes!!! Look what I found!" -- is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, but that was a lot of years ago. Now it resembles more the first.

[JSngry]

Yeah, hunting on the internet is a real thing, if you want it to be.

[HutchFan]

14 hours ago, Bluesnik said:

Yes, but that was a lot of years ago. Now it resembles more the first.

I know that record stores aren't everywhere, like they used to be.  But they're still around.  In a city like Atlanta, there are four or five shops that I re-visit regularly. 

Naturally, it wasn't happening during the peak of the pandemic.  But now I'm back at it.

Of course, YMMV.

 

[medjuck]

As Bill Murray says in Stripes:

 

 

[Bluesnik]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

I know that record stores aren't everywhere, like they used to be.  But they're still around. 

Yes, I visit one in my hometown regularly. Jazzmessengers, which is the only jazz-specialized store left. And they're very well sorted. They always store the latest jazz releases.

[Teasing the Korean]

After more than a year of using Lysol wipes to clean door handles, light switches, cell phones, remotes, and computer keyboards, I'm not real eager to flip through racks of LPs or CDs anytime soon.  

[kh1958]

23 hours ago, JSngry said:

I finally went back into a HPB the other Saturday, first time in over a year, and the supply was really depressing. They had obviously sold some stuff during the Covid Peak, but if they took in a lot of inventory....small sample size, and looking to be disproved as outward excursions return to normalcy.

What I really need is for some sociopathic germophobic big-collection person to walk up one day and think, hey, I breathed on all these records, I might be breeding a new variant, I better get these outta here. I know, HALF PRICE!!!!

I went to the big HPB a couple of weeks ago for the first time in 14 months; they had absolutely no records of interest. The worst selection I've ever seen at that store. Josey Records is another story; much better.

37 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

After more than a year of using Lysol wipes to clean door handles, light switches, cell phones, remotes, and computer keyboards, I'm not real eager to flip through racks of LPs or CDs anytime soon.  

The CDC has backed off from the advice that objects are a high risk of transmission: "The primary and most important mode of transmission for COVID-19 is through close contact from person-to-person. Based on data from lab studies on COVID-19 and what we know about similar respiratory diseases, it may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this isn’t thought to be the main way the virus spreads."