Some of Those Miles 60s Quintet Albums Are Mixed Poorly in Stereo

[Teasing the Korean]

If you are able to reduce the phantom center, either through hardware or software, you can bring up the bass and piano in the mix and set the horns back where they need to be. 

The first time I did this, it was like I was hearing the music for the first time.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Teasing the Korean

[jazzbo]

Are you referring to original LPs with original mixes?

I honestly don't find the original mixes to hamper my enjoyment of these sessions in any way and in fact prefer to listen to the originals rather than remixes. They seem to be creative statements these original mixes, a part of the artistic nature and charm of the albums. I love the music.

That said I don't have the "no eq, no futzing, direct only" mindset of many audiophiles I encounter and my equipment does allow me to play with EQ and present a forward or laid back sonic perspective etc.

Edited March 28, 2020 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

I'd like to know which albums you're referring to specifically, because off the top of my head, I seem to recall that the records that Teo was not involved in have a different sound.

But it's not jacked up or anything imo, it just adds to the stoneyjazzvibe of that music in that time.

[Teasing the Korean]

Horns too loud in the center, rhythm instruments mixed off to the side. You reduce the phantom center channel, and all of a sudden you can hear the music. 

[jlhoots]

I don't know where the "phantom center channel" is.

But I still write checks & listen to CDs.

[jazzbo]

4 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Horns too loud in the center, rhythm instruments mixed off to the side. You reduce the phantom center channel, and all of a sudden you can hear the music. 

Okay. Whatever works for you! I can hear the music without that.

Edited March 29, 2020 by jazzbo

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Okay. Whatever works for you! I can hear the music without that.

That's fine, if you are happy with substandard mixes, more power to ya! The horns obscure the rhythm section on my copies of a few of the albums. Reducing the phantom center makes them come alive. 

I will report which albums in particular separately.

It's really ESP and Miles Smiles.

[sonnymax]

Damn that Phantom Center for menacing with the mix!

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you could get it in mono?

[Teasing the Korean]

7 minutes ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

you could get it in mono?

I have them in mono.

That does not change the fact that the stereo versions suck. 

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

im sure.  i just dumped by stereo Brubeck jazz impressions of NY when i got the mono.......the stereo was like trying to play a game of "wheres desmond?" when the mono was like oh, there he is, in front of the mic

Edited March 29, 2020 by chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I am not saying that you have a problem with your set up, but having a strong or weak phantom center can be related to your system. In particular, you should check you speaker wires, because if you somehow got one speaker wired out of phase, that can certainly mess with the center. You can also change the speaker placement and change this pretty substantially.

[jazzbo]

10 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

That's fine, if you are happy with substandard mixes, more power to ya! The horns obscure the rhythm section on my copies of a few of the albums. Reducing the phantom center makes them come alive. 

I will report which albums in particular separately.

It's really ESP and Miles Smiles.

I don't feel these are substandard mixes, I feel they are carefully made mixes to achieve the intended effect--especially if we are talking about the originals if I guess we are. I grew up with these mixes, I like them, they are an interesting and integral part of the album for me.

I agree with Kevin that it's possible a phase issue exists and certainly speaker placement might be experimented with to see if this makes the mixes seem less "substandard" (really I think they are just a little different than some others, and I believe mixed to be). But anyway if you can tinker and make them sound really good to you, wonderful. The remixes may also be a bit more tailored to the sonic positioning you're seeking. I just think calling them "substandard" is painting them incorrectly with a broad dismissive stroke. Just me!

[Brad]

I’m with Lon on this. Sometimes we are too analytical from an audiophile mindset. On the other hand, whatever works for you is good too. 

[JSngry]

11 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

It's really ESP and Miles Smiles.

hmmm...those always seemed to be the most normal sounding of the batch to me.

[Teasing the Korean]

Thanks all for the replies. 

First, I am not an audiophile.

Second, I can tell the difference between malfunctioning equipment and a lousy mix.

I first knew this music from mono LPs.  I heard them in stereo on CD decades later.

I think the producer or engineer made a poor choice on the stereo mix to place the horns center and the rhythm instrument left and right. The horns overwhelm the rhythm section on my copies of the CDs.

That said, I have hardware (and software) that allows me to reduce the center, and using this feature brought the stereo versions to life for me. This is how I will continue to listen to these albums. The bass and piano have much more presence now.

[mikeweil]

Engineers and supervisors obviously had to gain some experience with stereo mixing. Rudy Van Gelder wrote in his notes to the SACD issue of Coltrane's album with Johnny Hartman (which included both stereo and mono mixes) that engineers were told to do the mono mix with special care until the late 1960's. Considering the fact that stereo turntables took many years to dominate the market, this is only logical

I once had an old Teleton receiver with a blend knob from stereo to mono. A priceless feature.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

Engineers and supervisors obviously had to gain some experience with stereo mixing. Rudy Van Gelder wrote in his notes to the SACD issue of Coltrane's album with Johnny Hartman (which included both stereo and mono mixes) that engineers were told to do the mono mix with special care until the late 1960's. Considering the fact that stereo turntables took many years to dominate the market, this is only logical

I once had an old Teleton receiver with a blend knob from stereo to mono. A priceless feature.

Unfortunately, folding these particular mixes to mono makes it worse, because the centered horns become louder relative to the elements mixed off to the sides.