Your music cataloging "system"

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

jazz cds  -organized by artist

jazz lps - randomly stuck in the shelves

classical cds - by conductor

classical lps - same as jazz lps 

 

 

[Spontooneous]

I started an alphabetized-by-artist catalog of my jazz LPs and CDs in Microsoft Works on a DOS computer in the summer of 1992. The job has since been taken over by a couple of other programs -- exporting the files was easy -- but the text-only catalog continues to grow and to serve me well.

There's no database functionality, so I can't tell you how many Paul Chambers sideman appearances I've collected, but that isn't bothering me. I can carry a copy of the whole thing on my phone and it stops me from buying duplicate copies, which was the main purpose in the first place.

[hopkins]

13 hours ago, Spontooneous said:

I started an alphabetized-by-artist catalog of my jazz LPs and CDs in Microsoft Works on a DOS computer in the summer of 1992. The job has since been taken over by a couple of other programs -- exporting the files was easy -- but the text-only catalog continues to grow and to serve me well.

There's no database functionality, so I can't tell you how many Paul Chambers sideman appearances I've collected, but that isn't bothering me. I can carry a copy of the whole thing on my phone and it stops me from buying duplicate copies, which was the main purpose in the first place.

The effort involved in managing a database with detailed credits by session is very high.

I do not regret having spend time building this detailed data for my own albums, but it would have been so much simpler to do if there were a single repository for session information available. 

The technology to implement this at very little cost is available, but I guess the incentive for discographers to "unite" and work together is not... 

 

 

 

 

[John L]

On 3/20/2023 at 7:46 AM, hopkins said:

The effort involved in managing a database with detailed credits by session is very high.

I do not regret having spend time building this detailed data for my own albums, but it would have been so much simpler to do if there were a single repository for session information available. 

The technology to implement this at very little cost is available, but I guess the incentive for discographers to "unite" and work together is not... 

 

 

 

 

Yes.  The easiest database to use would be one where there is already a preloaded comprehensive set of entries of albums with detailed discographical information.  Then there could be a way to quickly create a subset of albums that are held one's collection from that base, including the option of adding manually sessions or concerts that might have been left out.  That would save hours and hours of work that we probably duplicate with each other over and over again.  

Edited March 21, 2023 by John L

[Stonewall15]

Son-of-a-Weizen- what is your rationale for cataloging classical CDs by conductor instead of by composer?

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, John L said:

Yes.  The easiest database to use would be one where there is already a preloaded comprehensive set of entries of albums with detailed discographical information.  Then there could be a way to quickly create a subset of albums that are held one's collection from that base, including the option of adding manually sessions or concerts that might have been left out.  That would save hours and hours of work that we probably duplicate with each other over and over again.  

This data should be available in a downloadable format for inputting into a variety of formats. It's not copyrightable, but there's also no profit incentive.

But it could be done. Right? 

[Dub Modal]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

This data should be available in a downloadable format for inputting into a variety of formats. It's not copyrightable, but there's also no profit incentive.

But it could be done. Right? 

That description from John L. seems to fit discogs or am I missing something? 

[Larry Kart]

First chronologically by era, beginning with Medieval music, then within each era by country/culture (then within that by  composer) - thus all French Baroque together, chronologically then, within that bag, Lully, Charpentier, Couperin, Rameau, etc; likewise then by era and country until the end, with reasonable subgroups, e.g. if a country/era has a good-sized batch of avant-garde works or styistically similar organ music , I group those together within that country/era's overall grouping (thus Debussy/Ravel will be together within French 20th Century, followed by, say, Poulenc, Honneger, etc,  while Boulez, Barraque, etc, will be together in latter day French 20th Century. It can get quite detailed but always logical. I often find the the desire to listen to, say, one Scandinavian or German or Italian modernist or avant garde composer leads me to another. That reminds me that I like to keep 19th Century Italian opera composers in one section. In English modern music Britten beds down with Lennox Berkeley (which sometimes may have happened in real life), both them well apart from Brian Ferneyhough. Finally all American classical music goes together at the very end in chronological order, with certain (to me) logical subgroups (e.g. at the very very end, John Cage and Morton Feldman). Don't think I've left anything out. Or have I?

I've got a lot of classical CDs and LPs, maybe 3,000 in all, maybe many more. Classical LPs are organized the same way  as Classical CDs are. Jazz CDs and LPs are organized in a roughly similar manner, but there the eras are broader -- Early Jazz, Swing Era, Modern, Avant Garde, Vocalists, Blues, and alphabetically by artist within eras. 

 

[hopkins]

49 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

That description from John L. seems to fit discogs or am I missing something? 

Discogs has a vast number of releases (albums), but the quality of the data (dates, credits) is poor. It is a platform designed for selling/buying albums, not really for collectors and even less so for discographers. 

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

That description from John L. seems to fit discogs or am I missing something? 

I don't know...can you download a Discogs database into a database program of your choice? Of any choice?

Serious question.

[John L]

5 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

That description from John L. seems to fit discogs or am I missing something? 

What I had in mind was something a bit different.   The database would have a better, clearer and more elaborate format than discogs.   One of the reasons for having a jazz database is the ability to search by musicians, arrangers, and composers as well as a headline artist or group.  It can potentially call up sessions as well as albums, and also search (call up) artists and musicians in that medium.  I now have a database like that, but I had to invest more time than I would have liked into entering artists, arrangers, sessions, session dates, etc.   (Discogs does not offer these functions.  It does not even have a listing of musicians, recording dates, or session information for every album).  

What I was suggesting is that it would be beautiful if you could buy such a database that is not just an empty shell but already populated for a large number of albums.  That would allow us to mold it into representing our collections with a minimal amount of effort. 

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

This data should be available in a downloadable format for inputting into a variety of formats. It's not copyrightable, but there's also no profit incentive.

But it could be done. Right? 

Yes, I would think that it could certainly be done.   

[JSngry]

If there was some open source downloadable database, a user could query by any field they desired (presuming that it was already an existing field). That would require some end-user initiative and a LOT of collaborative coordination and would no doubt be an ongoing effort.

But - a discography itself is copyrightable. The information it contains is not. Ask Tom Lord about that. 

[jcam_44]

On 3/7/2023 at 6:47 PM, mikeweil said:

BRIAN is very elaborate. For just cataloging your collection, Steve Albin offers Beyond Category, a simpler database.

Where can I find more information on BRIAN?

[hopkins]

8 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

Where can I find more information on BRIAN?

https://jazzdiscography.com/brian-discography-software/

[hopkins]

3 hours ago, John L said:

What I had in mind was something a bit different.   The database would have a better, clearer and more elaborate format than discogs.   One of the reasons for having a jazz database is the ability to search by musicians, arrangers, and composers as well as a headline artist or group.  It can potentially call up sessions as well as albums, and also search (call up) artists and musicians in that medium.  I now have a database like that, but I had to invest more time than I would have liked into entering artists, arrangers, sessions, session dates, etc.   (Discogs does not offer these functions.  It does not even have a listing of musicians, recording dates, or session information for every album).  

What I was suggesting is that it would be beautiful if you could buy such a database that is not just an empty shell but already populated for a large number of albums.  That would allow us to mold it into representing our collections with a minimal amount of effort. 

Yes, I would think that it could certainly be done.   

The discogs database is publicly available but it is HUGE, difficult to use, and as we both pointed out, of low quality for jazz discography.

The system you describe is close to what I had in mind. I have given a lot of thought to all this for quite some time (years), and investigated a lot of different solutions out there (discogs being one, but also musicbrainz, and others mentioned above). There are many challenges to all this, but breaking down a complex problem into distinct smaller "components" we can make things more maneagble. I will take some time tonight to elaborate on all this and explain what I have in mind.

 

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

I don't know...can you download a Discogs database into a database program of your choice? Of any choice?

Serious question.

Here you go: https://discogs-data-dumps.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/index.html

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

If there was some open source downloadable database, a user could query by any field they desired (presuming that it was already an existing field). That would require some end-user initiative and a LOT of collaborative coordination and would no doubt be an ongoing effort.

But - a discography itself is copyrightable. The information it contains is not. Ask Tom Lord about that. 

I'll answer some of this in detail as well.

[Д.Д.]

To everybody who (justifiably) complains about the quality of Discogs data - you guys know that you can edit the Discogs database, right? @Ken Dryden does: https://www.discogs.com/user/askkendryden .

Edited March 23, 2023 by Д.Д.

[Dub Modal]

On 3/21/2023 at 8:38 PM, JSngry said:

I don't know...can you download a Discogs database into a database program of your choice? Of any choice?

Serious question.

When requested they send you a csv file. You can then transfer that to your spreadsheet software of choice (I use Excel) and then edit away. 

On 3/21/2023 at 10:03 PM, John L said:

What I had in mind was something a bit different.   The database would have a better, clearer and more elaborate format than discogs.   One of the reasons for having a jazz database is the ability to search by musicians, arrangers, and composers as well as a headline artist or group.  It can potentially call up sessions as well as albums, and also search (call up) artists and musicians in that medium.  I now have a database like that, but I had to invest more time than I would have liked into entering artists, arrangers, sessions, session dates, etc.   (Discogs does not offer these functions.  It does not even have a listing of musicians, recording dates, or session information for every album).  

What I was suggesting is that it would be beautiful if you could buy such a database that is not just an empty shell but already populated for a large number of albums.  That would allow us to mold it into representing our collections with a minimal amount of effort.  

That sounds like a combo of BRIAN and a discogs csv honestly. But I'm not sure minimal amount of effort on the user is guaranteed. 

On 3/21/2023 at 5:18 PM, hopkins said:

Discogs has a vast number of releases (albums), but the quality of the data (dates, credits) is poor. It is a platform designed for selling/buying albums, not really for collectors and even less so for discographers. 

I only use discogs for cataloging my collection. I've had to enter some editions of CDs, edit some releases etc. As you noted, it's tedious but I'm not sure one can escape tedium when faced with a project like this. 

[Ken Dryden]

Part of the problem for any discography remains the amount of incorrect information present on various releases that is often entered into the database. Obviously there isn't time to check every song title composer and instrument present on a given track, but there are some continuing problems that I run across.

Bill Evans credited with writing MIles Davis' "Nardis" and Denny Zeitlin's "Quiet Now," the latter a mistake repeated on the upcoming Elemental Music CD set Treasures.

Credit given only to the lyricist (or lyricists), omitting the composer of the music. This pops up repeatedly in Europe, especially with Willard Robison's "Old Folks."

Doesn't the artist, label, producer or liner note writer have the ability to check this info before going to press? Since I started writing liner notes years ago, that is something I include as a part of my service, but I also don't want to look like a chump because I can't identify song titles and songwriters correctly.

[hopkins]

23 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

Part of the problem for any discography remains the amount of incorrect information present on various releases that is often entered into the database. Obviously there isn't time to check every song title composer and instrument present on a given track, but there are some continuing problems that I run across.

Bill Evans credited with writing MIles Davis' "Nardis" and Denny Zeitlin's "Quiet Now," the latter a mistake repeated on the upcoming Elemental Music CD set Treasures.

Credit given only to the lyricist (or lyricists), omitting the composer of the music. This pops up repeatedly in Europe, especially with Willard Robison's "Old Folks."

Doesn't the artist, label, producer or liner note writer have the ability to check this info before going to press? Since I started writing liner notes years ago, that is something I include as a part of my service, but I also don't want to look like a chump because I can't identify song titles and songwriters correctly.

Kudos for such a professional attitude.

Nowadays, with streaming, these types of problems are amplified. I read that it is estimated around 25 % of royalty payments are misdirected due to missing or erroneous data! 

Edited March 24, 2023 by hopkins

[Teasing the Korean]

On 3/23/2023 at 6:43 PM, Ken Dryden said:

Doesn't the artist, label, producer or liner note writer have the ability to check this info before going to press? Since I started writing liner notes years ago, that is something I include as a part of my service, but I also don't want to look like a chump because I can't identify song titles and songwriters correctly.

There are even examples of a track credited under the title of a different tune, listing the author of the wrong tune.  Some of these have been perpetuated for decades.  You would think this kind of thing would be corrected sooner!

[Ken Dryden]

Believe me, I have seen a lot in the several dozen projects that I've done. Wrong titles, wrong composers, missing composers, medleys that omit some of the songs played, misspelled names of musicians and composers, missing instruments and even incorrect musicians. One of the first major jobs I had was a compilation of previously issued material and both the date and the personnel were wrong on one track. I got into a debate with someone at the label and won the argument by citing the discography of the artist, a bio of him and the previous issue of the track. The drummer cited had been fired three months before the actual recording date.

Even odder was a compilation of an artist from his vast recordings for the label. When I got the advance, I pointed out that one of the songs didn't even feature a solo by the leader. I was asked for a suggested replacement and gave one, which was used. Then I mentioned one of this best known compositions recorded for them was oddly omitted, so they asked which song it should replace and they took my recommendation. 

For some reason, certain labels and writers seem prone to these mistakes, though I won't mention any of them in a public forum.

Unfortunately, the quality of ASCAP and BMI databases have declined in recent years. Songs I used to find there are no longer present.

What's the deal with "Body and Soul"? I know Johnny Green wrote the music, but the lyric was evidently written by Edward Heyman, Frank Eyton and Robert Sour, though some listings omit one of the latter two. Was the lyric revised early on, or is this just a mistake that is repeated?

 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

60 years later, Kai Winding's Soul Surfin' still has Les Baxter's "Jungle Flower" listed as "China Nights," credited to the composer of the latter, Takeoka.  I informed the Les Baxter estate of this years ago.  Not sure if they're collecting any royalties, but it still hasn't been corrected.  

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/soul-surfin-kai-winding-kenny-burrell/ky0bvju7zbhha

[hopkins]

I have always wondered how Tom Lord build his discography, and who contributes nowadays (additions, corrections...).

Edited March 29, 2023 by hopkins

[scooter_phx]

In the FWIW department, I use JRiver Media Center which is now up to version 30 and use it only for audio files.  I have most of my collection digitized and can search for most anything as long as I remembered to add the information to the notes in the tags.  I've used it for years and it works well for me.  It is not a discography kind of database but I suspect it could be used that way if you really wanted something like that.

[EKE BBB]

4 hours ago, hopkins said:

I have always wondered how Tom Lord build his discography, and who contributes nowadays (additions, corrections...).

I've been sending him corrections for some time (on a few artists I am particularly interested in), and he has been consistently incorporating them.