Playing Favorites: Reflections on Jazz of the Later 1940's

[jazzcorner]

14 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

That's not the 40s (and the time frame of this topic ) anymore, but never mind ... . This 2-LP set , however,  is a sampler/compilation of the Jazztime USA recordings (a nice one indeed as I found out again when I spun it again the other day).

I'd rather advise to go for the three individual Vols. 1, 2 and 3 that were released on Coral at the time.
Vol. 2 was reissued as Vol. 13 of the "Jazz Lab" LP series on German MCA in the mid-70s (the series with the silly generic laboratory flasks on the front cover - no doubt you will remember them if you've been 'round the block long enough ).
I never checked the available reissues of the others as I had found originals of all three "Jazztime USA" 12in LPs without much difficulty. Before those 12in LPs, two 10in LPs and a 45 with part of that material had been issued (on German Coral, for example).
The compilation you showed still serves its purpose, though, as it includes 5 tracks (if I compared correctly) that are not on the 3 individual LPs of "Jazztime USA" released in the 50s.

Interesting Information about the content of the MCA Jazz Lab series (silly covers indeed).

Have them submitted nearly completely at Discogs here: https://www.discogs.com/label/635161-Jazz-Lab

except the Vol 1 which I have as original.

Edited March 5, 2020 by jazzcorner
typo

[Gheorghe]

13 hours ago, BillF said:

Following your lead, Gheorghe, I listened to this Savoy selection with the same title:

First thing to catch my ear was the unmistakable sound of Argonne "Dense" Thornton (aka Sadik Hakim). (Dense is a very strange nickname: I take it you know it means "stupid" in English. ) It's unmistakable as it sounds so odd on the famous Parker "Ko Ko" studio session where piano duties were said to be shared between Thornton and Dizzy. I always assumed that on this early bop session Thornton hadn't figured out how to play a bop solo (and on the Dexter session of the same year he sounds the same, tho' with very competent comping), but in his Wikipedia entry Scott Yanow sees it as deliberate rather than incompetent, saying Hakim "had a particularly unusual boppish style in the '40s, playing dissonant lines, using repetition to build suspense, and certainly standing out from the many Bud Powell impressionists." Wikipedia also reminds me that he recorded with Lester in the 40s, which I think I recall from the Aladdin sessions. Must give them another listen. As I write this I'm listening to a later Hakim trio album which sounds far more conventional/competent:

 

Very interesting for me to read your impressions about those early sides with Sadik Hakim on piano. I had exactly the same Impression, that here someone tries to play  what he thought that it might be "hip or weird" and might sound "like bop". I know excactly how this happens, since when I first heard "bop" as a teenager, I loved what I heard, but I still didn´t understand WHAT happens. We had a combo of four kids who tried "to play jazz"  and the most painful Thing was when we listened back to what we had recorded on tape. Especially for me, I played those stiff collar syncopated strictly chromatic lines since I thought that this is the essence of bop, but it sounded …….. how can I explain it, it didn´t mean nothing, it was just a dull syncopated chromatic line. 

I mean, maybe Sadik Hakim wanted to be influenced by Monk, but even if Monk played in a  more abstractical manner than Bud or Hank Jones or Walter Bishop, he always could tell "a Little Story" in his solos, which I don´t hear when I listen to those Sadik Hakim solos on the Savoy sessions. 

One guy who sounds similar to this early Sadik Hakim is George Handy on the westcoast session 1946 "Diggin´ Diz" (I think it was called Ross Russel´s Tempo Jazzmen) and that´s the same piano style: Weird and Abstract and very much sounding like european experimental music. 

Even Al Haig at the beginning ….. he had the technique, but he also sounds very "stiff collard" and edgy on the early 1945 sides. But listen to Al Haig 3 or 4 years later how he Plays!!! He really learned it by listening to Bird and Diz…..

The piano of Bud Powell really "changed my life" , I heard those Beautiful Things that you can Play Pretty even if it´s fast tempo and bop. You hear it on those early 1949 sides for BN with Fats and Sonny, all those tunes "Bouncing with Bud" "Dance of the Infidels" "Wail", that it´s fast, it is played with great virtuosity and it still is "pretty". Same with Al Haig on the 1949 Roost Sides with Bird. He gets enough solo space and really sounds pretty. 

[BillF]

6 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

Very interesting for me to read your impressions about those early sides with Sadik Hakim on piano. I had exactly the same Impression, that here someone tries to play  what he thought that it might be "hip or weird" and might sound "like bop". I know excactly how this happens, since when I first heard "bop" as a teenager, I loved what I heard, but I still didn´t understand WHAT happens. We had a combo of four kids who tried "to play jazz"  and the most painful Thing was when we listened back to what we had recorded on tape. Especially for me, I played those stiff collar syncopated strictly chromatic lines since I thought that this is the essence of bop, but it sounded …….. how can I explain it, it didn´t mean nothing, it was just a dull syncopated chromatic line. 

I mean, maybe Sadik Hakim wanted to be influenced by Monk, but even if Monk played in a  more abstractical manner than Bud or Hank Jones or Walter Bishop, he always could tell "a Little Story" in his solos, which I don´t hear when I listen to those Sadik Hakim solos on the Savoy sessions. 

One guy who sounds similar to this early Sadik Hakim is George Handy on the westcoast session 1946 "Diggin´ Diz" (I think it was called Ross Russel´s Tempo Jazzmen) and that´s the same piano style: Weird and Abstract and very much sounding like european experimental music. 

Even Al Haig at the beginning ….. he had the technique, but he also sounds very "stiff collard" and edgy on the early 1945 sides. But listen to Al Haig 3 or 4 years later how he Plays!!! He really learned it by listening to Bird and Diz…..

The piano of Bud Powell really "changed my life" , I heard those Beautiful Things that you can Play Pretty even if it´s fast tempo and bop. You hear it on those early 1949 sides for BN with Fats and Sonny, all those tunes "Bouncing with Bud" "Dance of the Infidels" "Wail", that it´s fast, it is played with great virtuosity and it still is "pretty". Same with Al Haig on the 1949 Roost Sides with Bird. He gets enough solo space and really sounds pretty. 

Some very interesting observations there, Gheorghe!

And now, as I resolved in my last post, I'm moving to this. Another one for the desert island!

[Gheorghe]

Hello Bill ! 

I first saw the Lester Young with another cover (BN double LP LA-Series), and also in the record stores was the Musidisc LP "Royal Roost", very fine live recording and quite bop influenced, fitting for the "House that Bop built" or how they said about Royal Roost. 

[Big Beat Steve]

9 hours ago, jazzcorner said:

Interesting Information about the content of the MCA Jazz Lab series (silly covers indeed).

Have them submitted nearly completely at Discogs here: https://www.discogs.com/label/635161-Jazz-Lab

The two Jazz Lab volumes not listed on Discogs are:

- Vol. 2 - Ralph Burns Orchestra  (MCA 6.22173 AK) - originally released as "Jazz Studio Five"

- Vol 10 - Chico Hamilton Quintet (MCA 6.21808 AK) - originally soundtrack music from "Sweet Smell of Success"

(Search me why these numbers preceded the numbering of  Vol. 1 and the rest )

[jazzcorner]

4 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

The two Jazz Lab volumes not listed on Discogs are:

- Vol. 2 - Ralph Burns Orchestra  (MCA 6.22173 AK) - originally released as "Jazz Studio Five"

- Vol 10 - Chico Hamilton Quintet (MCA 6.21808 AK) - originally soundtrack music from "Sweet Smell of Success"

Well here is the Hamilton (missed the Ralph Burns indeed but have it now on my want list)

;-]]

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by jazzcorner

[Peter Friedman]

This CD has the very first recordings by Bud Powell.

It is suspected that Thelonious Monk may have recommended the 19 year old well to replace pianist Ken Kersey with Cootie Williams. Bud appears on 19 of the 25 tracks on this CD.

 

 

[Gheorghe]

I purchased this in the late 70´s as a quite expensive Japan Import. 

Very fine ! 

And I like most the two ballads "I Surrender Dear" and "Don´t Blame Me" , those two ballads were also featured on the 1947 broadcast "Bands for Bonds" done by Barry Ulanov.

[BillF]

9 hours ago, BillF said:

Some very interesting observations there, Gheorghe!

And now, as I resolved in my last post, I'm moving to this. Another one for the desert island!

I first owned the Prez Aladdins in the mid-60s on LPs that looked like this:

[Big Beat Steve]

The facsimile reissues of the original Aladdin LPs (LP801 and 802) that were reissued by Pathé MArconi (EMI) in the mid-80s were very nicely done, sounded fine and kept that inimitable "period" touch.

[Peter Friedman]

Just pulled this one off my shelves. Plan to listen to it soon.

[BillF]

11 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

Just pulled this one off my shelves. Plan to listen to it soon.

Lovely stuff! And great photo of the sax section I hadn't seen before.

[BillF]

Another desert island date which I first owned in about 1958 in this 10" format:

and later in this:

In the 70s I was to add this to the mix, on an Italian label and bought in Milan:

I recall a musician friend (John Rubin, brother of Ron Rubin who played with Ronnie Scott) regretting in about 1960 that the Birth of the Cool sessions didn't swing like Shorty Rogers' "Didi"/"Popo" band:

With a more up-to-date rhythm section there was no lack of swing in those arrangements:

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by BillF

[Gheorghe]

On 7.3.2020 at 6:05 PM, BillF said:

Another desert island date which I first owned in about 1958 in this 10" format:

and later in this:

In the 70s I was to add this to the mix, on an Italian label and bought in Milan:

I recall a musician friend (John Rubin, brother of Ron Rubin who played with Ronnie Scott) regretting in about 1960 that the Birth of the Cool sessions didn't swing like Shorty Rogers' "Didi"/"Popo" band:

With a more up-to-date rhythm section there was no lack of swing in those arrangements:

 

Yes, I also had in mind to post Miles´Birth of the Cool", I have the CD "The Complete Birth of the Cool", that´s the famous Studio records and the broadcasts from Royal Roost. Also very fine the vocal Features with Kenny Haggood 

[BillF]

About 60 years since I've known these tracks, but this is a very good compilation for getting reacquainted.

Unlike the 1950 Bird and Diz session with "Oscar for Treadwell", "Mohawk" etc, I don't find Bird's compositions on the Schnapps date inspiring. I suppose "Blues for Alice" is the best of the bunch, though it's those wonderful changes that I really treasure. (I take it what we call "Blues for Alice" changes originated with this tune and hadn't been used before.)

Coming back to the next session after many years, it's Walter Bishop's piano playing that really strikes me - such an improvement on the turgid John Lewis on the previous date. The group as a whole isn't too well integrated on Schnapps. I guess they weren't a working band, tho' I know of course of the partnership of Bird and Rodney.

Finally we have the wonderful 1949 date with the Tommy Turk tracks omitted. Now there's a beautifully integrated working band which we know well from their live recordings!

[Gheorghe]

37 minutes ago, BillF said:

About 60 years since I've known these tracks, but this is a very good compilation for getting reacquainted.

Unlike the 1950 Bird and Diz session with "Oscar for Treadwell", "Mohawk" etc, I don't find Bird's compositions on the Schnapps date inspiring. I suppose "Blues for Alice" is the best of the bunch, though it's those wonderful changes that I really treasure. (I take it what we call "Blues for Alice" changes originated with this tune and hadn't been used before.)

Coming back to the next session after many years, it's Walter Bishop's piano playing that really strikes me - such an improvement on the turgid John Lewis on the previous date. The group as a whole isn't too well integrated on Schnapps. I guess they weren't a working band, tho' I know of course of the partnership of Bird and Rodney.

Finally we have the wonderful 1949 date with the Tommy Turk tracks omitted. Now there's a beautifully integrated working band which we know well from their live recordings!

Hello Bill !

I have the sessions, but with other Album covers, actually the 1949 dates (with or without Tommy Turk) were on "Jazz Perennial" (I think it was Vol. 7) and the Swedish Schnapps session from 1951 on the LP with that Title (Vol. 8). 

About the quality of the compositions on the Swedish Schnapps Dates, well I think "Si Si" is a very nice blues line and "Schnapps" is a very nice rhythm changes line. 

"Si Si" has nice augmented blues changes, as has "Blues for Alice". Maybe "Back Home Blues" and "K C Blues" are not as interesting, at least for the time the record was done. 

I know those tunes quite well since I had a chance to play with Mr. Allen Praskin in the late 70´s and he loved to play all those rare performed bop tunes. We did "Segment" , we did "Si Si" and I remember "Bloomdido" (from the Bird ´n Diz Album). It was a great experience to hear those old tunes with that fantastic new alto voice, that´s how I felt About it, I was still almost a kid and had a lot to learn, but it was a great honour for me to get the chance to play with such a great musician who really knew that music . 

[BillF]

7 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Hello Bill !

I have the sessions, but with other Album covers, actually the 1949 dates (with or without Tommy Turk) were on "Jazz Perennial" (I think it was Vol. 7) and the Swedish Schnapps session from 1951 on the LP with that Title (Vol. 8). 

About the quality of the compositions on the Swedish Schnapps Dates, well I think "Si Si" is a very nice blues line and "Schnapps" is a very nice rhythm changes line. 

"Si Si" has nice augmented blues changes, as has "Blues for Alice". Maybe "Back Home Blues" and "K C Blues" are not as interesting, at least for the time the record was done. 

I know those tunes quite well since I had a chance to play with Mr. Allen Praskin in the late 70´s and he loved to play all those rare performed bop tunes. We did "Segment" , we did "Si Si" and I remember "Bloomdido" (from the Bird ´n Diz Album). It was a great experience to hear those old tunes with that fantastic new alto voice, that´s how I felt About it, I was still almost a kid and had a lot to learn, but it was a great honour for me to get the chance to play with such a great musician who really knew that music . 

Great reminiscences, Gheorghe! 

[sidewinder]

On 07/03/2020 at 5:05 PM, BillF said:

Another desert island date which I first owned in about 1958 in this 10" format:

and later in this:

In the 70s I was to add this to the mix, on an Italian label and bought in Milan:

I recall a musician friend (John Rubin, brother of Ron Rubin who played with Ronnie Scott) regretting in about 1960 that the Birth of the Cool sessions didn't swing like Shorty Rogers' "Didi"/"Popo" band:

 

Still got that Italian LP - must dig out.

[BillF]

1 hour ago, sidewinder said:

Still got that Italian LP - must dig out.

Yes, I recall elaborate notes in Italian on the back. Certainly a rarity in my collection.

[Gheorghe]

I already posted the Savoy Double Album "Mr. B. and the Band" with very much bop Arrangements , great ballads and vintage big band bop on "Cool Breeze" and "Oo Bop Sh Bam" and so on.

This one is from About the same time and has less bop stuff and is more focussed on the ballads, but very fine .

Billy Eckstine and Sarah Vaughan remain my favourite singers of the 40´s . 

[BillF]

Got this one out fr the first time in a long time. Notice I had written "Bird superb; rec qual poor".

I've never owned any Benedetti Parker, but heard that he always switched off when Bird was't playing. This seems to be happening here. Is this album from Benedetti material?

[Gheorghe]

On 13.3.2020 at 10:30 PM, BillF said:

Got this one out fr the first time in a long time. Notice I had written "Bird superb; rec qual poor".

I've never owned any Benedetti Parker, but heard that he always switched off when Bird was't playing. This seems to be happening here. Is this album from Benedetti material?

I also have this, but the Benedetti thing of cutting out the other soloists was done also by others, like Jimmy Knepper on "Bird at St Nick´s "

[BillF]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

I also have this, but the Benedetti thing of cutting out the other soloists was done also by others, like Jimmy Knepper on "Bird at St Nick´s "

Must have another listen to St Nick's. In my youth I wrote it off as just too awful soundwise for listening.

[Big Beat Steve]

But Benedetti was an extreme case. Regrettably ...Solos without context are for geeks or maybe for extremely zealous musicologists but elsewhere ...?

I have a Storyville LP pressing of the concert and jam session recordings Bird made during his tour in Sweden in 1950. It wasn't edited THAT heavily but anoyingly anyway I am no sure if I am to consider this a favor for the listener or an insult, but liner notes scribe Lars Werner (a musician himself, and not the least figure in Swedish jazz of the 60s) explicitly stated that he cut out all the piano solos - by Gösta Theselius - no less (allegedly because the piano was too poorly recorded), and in "Body and Soul" he cut out solos by Rowland Greenberg (tp), Gösta Theselius (ts) - who certainly were no slouches either - and Lennart Nilsson (p). And besides Nilsson, Rolf Ericson (tp) had his solo cut out from "fine and Dandy" too. OTOH the INTERACTION between Bird and all these musicians would have been fascinating too (particularly considering the contemporary jazz paper reports of the jam sessions and how they propelled all the participants to creative heights in the company of Bird). Not a very satisfactory approach, particularly since the original recordings DID included everthing as it seems ... Even Bird idolatry can go too far ...

[BillF]

36 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

But Benedetti was an extreme case. Regrettably ...Solos without context are for geeks or maybe for extremely zealous musicologists but elsewhere ...?

I have a Storyville LP pressing of the concert and jam session recordings Bird made during his tour in Sweden in 1950. It wasn't edited THAT heavily but anoyingly anyway I am no sure if I am to consider this a favor for the listener or an insult, but liner notes scribe Lars Werner (a musician himself, and not the least figure in Swedish jazz of the 60s) explicitly stated that he cut out all the piano solos - by Gösta Theselius - no less (allegedly because the piano was too poorly recorded), and in "Body and Soul" he cut out solos by Rowland Greenberg (tp), Gösta Theselius (ts) - who certainly were no slouches either - and Lennart Nilsson (p). And besides Nilsson, Rolf Ericson (tp) had his solo cut out from "fine and Dandy" too. OTOH the INTERACTION between Bird and all these musicians would have been fascinating too (particularly considering the contemporary jazz paper reports of the jam sessions and how they propelled all the participants to creative heights in the company of Bird). Not a very satisfactory approach, particularly since the original recordings DID included everthing as it seems ... Even Bird idolatry can go too far ...

Yes, the presence of a compelling soloist can produce some remarkable results in relatively minor players. I saw this happen at a Leeds University gig in about 1964 when student flugel player Terry Parkinson was moved to the heights by visiting altoist Joe Harriott shouting "Go! Go!". 

Edited March 15, 2020 by BillF