Playing Favorites: Reflections on Jazz of the Later 1940's

[jazzcorner]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Don't start me talking about jazz radio in the past or I'll be telling you about how I used to listen with my ear to the loudspeaker trying to hear Willis Conover introducing the Voice of America Jazz Hour or jazz on American Forces Network from Germany through a barrage of static! (Perhaps this is why I have little sympathy for people who bemoan the lack of present-day recording quality in those 40s bebop tracks! As far as listening goes, I was raised in the hard school!)

You can hear  the VOA with Willis Conover again today from here

https://mailchi.mp/library/news-from-the-unt-libraries-2-27-2020?e=6b0f138efb

They have a lot of material in their archive

 

 

[Big Beat Steve]

Corner, you ought to have quoted BillF and not me. It was HIS post you are referring to.

[Niko]

Be that as it may - I am now listening to a Willis Conover interview with Chet Baker from 1955 and enjoy it very much...

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc770489/m1/#track/1

 

[Gheorghe]

Some late 40´s BN stuff.

I know that poor recording sound should not be a point of discussion on this thread, but I always wondered, why the 1948 Monk session (the one with Milt Jackson, John Simmons, Shadow Wilson and on two tracks Kenny Haggood) has such a poor recording sound. Not up to BN standards, and it was recorded in the studio. Otherwise the music on it allways thrilled me. 

[BillF]

What is your favorite Herd?

Although critical opinion swings behind the First Herd of 1945-46, as a bebopper I can't resist the Four Brothers band and would take this album to the desert island (though I could do without the novelty vocals). How about you?

49 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

 

 

 

Two more for that island, Gheorghe! 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by BillF

[Big Beat Steve]

I'd tend towards the Second Herd too. But this is a band where I find it hard to take a decision between the Band that plays the blues, First and Second (and possibly Third) Herd. And I'd leave in the novelty vocals. They are part of the band into the context of its time. I'd rather skip Woody Herman's attempts at being a ballad singer in his earlier bands (little wonder that for a long time you'd see them reissued only on those "In disco order" LPs).

Edited March 1, 2020 by Big Beat Steve

[BillF]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I'd tend towards the Second Herd too. But this is a band where I find it hard to take a decision between the Band that plays the blues, First and Second (and possibly Third) Herd. And I'd leave in the novelty vocals. They are part of the band into the context of its time. I'd rather skip Woody Herman's attempts at being a ballad singer in his earlier bands (little wonder that for a long time you'd see them reissued only on those "In disco order" LPs).

Your mention of Woody as a ballad singer in his earlier bands reminds me of his rendition of "Everything Happens to Me". Love the words of that song! 

 

[Brad]

Night Lights did a great program on Willis Conover and the VOA a while ago.  A very enjoyable listen.

https://indianapublicmedia.org/nightlights/conovers-comin-over-willis-conover-and-jazz-at-the-voice-of-america.php

[Gheorghe]

3 hours ago, BillF said:

Your mention of Woody as a ballad singer in his earlier bands reminds me of his rendition of "Everything Happens to Me". Love the words of that song! 

 

Some late 40´s BN stuff.

I know that poor recording sound should not be a point of discussion on this thread, but I always wondered, why the 1948 Monk session (the one with Milt Jackson, John Simmons, Shadow Wilson and on two tracks Kenny Haggood) has such a poor recording sound. Not up to BN standards, and it was recorded in the studio. Otherwise the music on it allways thrilled me. 

Yes , the second Herd was fantastic. And yeah, Woody as a singer was great. I was lucky to see him twice. The second time in 1985 was not with the Herd, but with an allstar combo and I´ll never forget a fantastic version of "I´ve got the world on a string" as a vocal feature for Woody .

[Gheorghe]

Especially the live "Bopland" stuff, those Allstar Jams with Dexter and Wardell Gray, other soloists are Howard McGhee, Trummy Young, Sonny Criss and Hampton Hawes. 

Really hot stuff and those friendly tenor battles between Dexter and Wardell are legendary. 

One strange thing: The version of "Cherokee" is the slowest "Cherokee" I ever heard. 

[BillF]

22 hours ago, Brad said:

Night Lights did a great program on Willis Conover and the VOA a while ago.  A very enjoyable listen.

https://indianapublicmedia.org/nightlights/conovers-comin-over-willis-conover-and-jazz-at-the-voice-of-america.php

Yes, I heard it. It was good.

[Gheorghe]

hello everybody, here´s another great thing ! Actually I first had the Spotlite LP "Bird in Paris", but later purchased that CD with more unissued material. 

[BillF]

4 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

hello everybody, here´s another great thing ! Actually I first had the Spotlite LP "Bird in Paris", but later purchased that CD with more unissued material. 

Now that's one I don't know! What's the sound quality like and who is he with?

P.S. Googling it brings up this which I remember:

[Gheorghe]

Yes this is the Spotlite LP I also have. On the CD (Rare Live Recordings) you have on the first CD about the same tracks like on the Spotlite CD, and on the second CD you have a different concert from a different town in France, and you also have the famous "Blues" from the jam session where all musicians participate, who played at the Festival. (Hot Lips Page, Don Byas, Sidney Bechet, Miles, everybody). And that strange Version for "Lady Bird" with the legendary Maurice Moufflard Orchestra plus percussionists, actually a year later from late 1950 (after the "Bird in Sweden" when he was scheduled to Play again in Paris, but disappeard, so it is very strange how he nevertheless made this recording of "Lady Bird".

Sound Quality ? Well let´s say it´s okay, like many other non Studio Recordings from the 40´s......

[BillF]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

Yes this is the Spotlite LP I also have. On the CD (Rare Live Recordings) you have on the first CD about the same tracks like on the Spotlite CD, and on the second CD you have a different concert from a different town in France, and you also have the famous "Blues" from the jam session where all musicians participate, who played at the Festival. (Hot Lips Page, Don Byas, Sidney Bechet, Miles, everybody). And that strange Version for "Lady Bird" with the legendary Maurice Moufflard Orchestra plus percussionists, actually a year later from late 1950 (after the "Bird in Sweden" when he was scheduled to Play again in Paris, but disappeard, so it is very strange how he nevertheless made this recording of "Lady Bird".

Sound Quality ? Well let´s say it´s okay, like many other non Studio Recordings from the 40´s......

Wow! Miles meets Sidney Bechet!! That must have been something! 

[Gheorghe]

44 minutes ago, BillF said:

Wow! Miles meets Sidney Bechet!! That must have been something! 

You didn´t know that ??? It is also on the Spotlite LP. "Blues" (JamSession) from Sunday, the last day of the Jazz Week 1949. You have solos by Don Byas, Hot Lips Page, Sidney Bechet, Miles, Bird, and a typical JATP shouting Riff during the end. 

But if you want to hear another unusual Encounter of Miles with a traditionalist, you must check  out one certain Broadcast from 1949 , where you have Miles together with traditional trumpeter Max Kaminsky ! I have it on the 4 CD box Bird at the Royal Roost. By the way, Sidney Bechet is also on that set. If I remember Right, the Miles-Kaminsky encounter happens on Bird´s Blues "Big Foot"......

So Miles, who always bragged that he never "looked back", at least on two occasions performed with pre bop, or even pre swing musicians (Bechet and Kaminsky).

 

[Brad]

4 hours ago, BillF said:

Wow! Miles meets Sidney Bechet!! That must have been something! 

I wasn’t aware of that either (and I have the Royal Roost box! )

[BillF]

5 minutes ago, Brad said:

I wasn’t aware of that either (and I have the Royal Roost box! )

Thank you Brad for rescuing me from the charge of ignorance!

Hope I can recover something of my reputation by revealing that I saw Max Kaminsky play (tho I never saw Miles or Bechet - not even separately.) 

The date was 1957 and Kaminsky was touring with Hines,Teagarden, Cozy Cole and Jack Lesberg.

[Peter Friedman]

[Brad]

Pulling this out today.

 

[Gheorghe]

Great 1949 sessions by Stan Getz at an early stage of his career, a great quartet with Al Haig, Gene Ramey and Roy Haynes. 

Getz in bop surroundings can also be found on a 1950 Birdland encounter with Miles, J.J. Johnson , Tadd Dameron, Art Blakey. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Gheorghe

[BillF]

Following your lead, Gheorghe, I listened to this Savoy selection with the same title:

First thing to catch my ear was the unmistakable sound of Argonne "Dense" Thornton (aka Sadik Hakim). (Dense is a very strange nickname: I take it you know it means "stupid" in English. ) It's unmistakable as it sounds so odd on the famous Parker "Ko Ko" studio session where piano duties were said to be shared between Thornton and Dizzy. I always assumed that on this early bop session Thornton hadn't figured out how to play a bop solo (and on the Dexter session of the same year he sounds the same, tho' with very competent comping), but in his Wikipedia entry Scott Yanow sees it as deliberate rather than incompetent, saying Hakim "had a particularly unusual boppish style in the '40s, playing dissonant lines, using repetition to build suspense, and certainly standing out from the many Bud Powell impressionists." Wikipedia also reminds me that he recorded with Lester in the 40s, which I think I recall from the Aladdin sessions. Must give them another listen. As I write this I'm listening to a later Hakim trio album which sounds far more conventional/competent:

 

[John Tapscott]

On 3/1/2020 at 3:19 AM, BillF said:

What is your favorite Herd?

Although critical opinion swings behind the First Herd of 1945-46, as a bebopper I can't resist the Four Brothers band and would take this album to the desert island (though I could do without the novelty vocals). How about you?

 

I might be tempted to name the roaring '62-'65 Herd as my favorite. It is so hard to choose between the First and Second Herd. Maybe the Second Herd that had Bill Harris (I believe it started off without Bill). 

[jazzcorner]

A great 2 LP set is the following

MCA Records MCA 4113  " Jazztime USA " - The Best of Bob Thiele's Classic Jam Sessions of the 1950's

[Big Beat Steve]

That's not the 40s (and the time frame of this topic ) anymore, but never mind ... . This 2-LP set , however,  is a sampler/compilation of the Jazztime USA recordings (a nice one indeed as I found out again when I spun it again the other day).

I'd rather advise to go for the three individual Vols. 1, 2 and 3 that were released on Coral at the time.
Vol. 2 was reissued as Vol. 13 of the "Jazz Lab" LP series on German MCA in the mid-70s (the series with the silly generic laboratory flasks on the front cover - no doubt you will remember them if you've been 'round the block long enough ).
I never checked the available reissues of the others as I had found originals of all three "Jazztime USA" 12in LPs without much difficulty. Before those 12in LPs, two 10in LPs and a 45 with part of that material had been issued (on German Coral, for example).
The compilation you showed still serves its purpose, though, as it includes 5 tracks (if I compared correctly) that are not on the 3 individual LPs of "Jazztime USA" released in the 50s.