Playing Favorites: Reflections on Jazz of the Later 1940's

[Big Beat Steve]

16 hours ago, jazzcorner said:

 

Thanks for the reply. All I found is indeed only the Savoy LP 12020 in your listing above.. All other Cat# are not in your listing.

I think I will check Discogs too.

 

A real discography (not necessarily the Lord one) should be more helpful (apart from all the info that is out there on the internet). Discogs is useful but spotty.
I did not check the details of the covers you posted but clues to what is on these individual reissues include are there. E.g. I am fairly sure even without checking closer that the "The Champ" LP features tracks from the early 50s DeeGee recordings that Diz made and that ended up with Savoy and were reissued there. The name of John Coltrane listed among the featured artists there is the clincher for the directions that further investigations ought to take.

And the "Paris Concert" record on GNP (with a cover photograph hardly matching the period of the contents) is the 1953 Pleyel concert (cf. "Mon Homme"!).

Both items way outside the listing provided by EKE BBB, of course.

[Peter Friedman]

More late 40's jazz cd's off my shelves.

[Gheorghe]

Great collection ! 

 

How about this ? 

Miles Davis with Lee Konitz at Royal Roost is great (september 1948).

Not "late forties" but also remarkable the 1952 sides with Jackie McLean. 

And from the "cronological" I have this one with Fats. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Gheorghe

[Jim Duckworth]

59 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

More late 40's jazz cd's off my shelves

 

I really hate that I missed this one-what I've heard is tremendous.  Brew Moore!

[Peter Friedman]

The more I check my CD shelves, the more I find from the late 40's.

[jazzcorner]

4 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

A real discography (not necessarily the Lord one) should be more helpful (apart from all the info that is out there on the internet). Discogs is useful but spotty.
I did not check the details of the covers you posted but clues to what is on these individual reissues include are there. E.g. I am fairly sure even without checking closer that the "The Champ" LP features tracks from the early 50s DeeGee recordings that Diz made and that ended up with Savoy and were reissued there. The name of John Coltrane listed among the featured artists there is the clincher for the directions that further investigations ought to take.

And the "Paris Concert" record on GNP (with a cover photograph hardly matching the period of the contents) is the 1953 Pleyel concert (cf. "Mon Homme"!).

Both items way outside the listing provided by EKE BBB, of course.

Thanks for the additional Info on the 1953 Pleyel concert. I think sooner or later I will have the data together

Best

W.

[BillF]

7 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

Jazz in the late 40's included a lot go good music other than early bebop. Here are a few off my shelves.

Yes, of course you're right. And there was considerable overlap between bop and earlier styles. Don Byas, Big Sid Catlett, Teddy Wilson and Red Norvo were on Parker and/or Gillespie record dates and even T Bone Walker sounded like a bopper at the time.

[Big Beat Steve]

15 minutes ago, jazzcorner said:

Thanks for the additional Info on the 1953 Pleyel concert. I think sooner or later I will have the data together

 

I think once anyone's collection exceeds a certain number of records a discography is a must as a reference opus (and maybe as a "window shopping" catalog to whet your appetite ) - and to check which is which in order to avoid excessive duplications before buying (unless you have moneys to burn). Rust, Jepsen (books) and Bruyninckx (on CD) do it for me (Lord is way overpriced IMO for what I will get out of it beyond Bruyninckx et al and includes a LOT that is of no interest to me), and along with Goodrich-Dixon and Leadbitter/Slaven for blues plus Nicolausson, Ginell/Coffey, Lange and various others (including internet discographies) for niche segments of my music largely cover most of my needs. And I'd feel fairly naked without them.

 

13 minutes ago, BillF said:

 and even T Bone Walker sounded like a bopper at the time.

Which brings up one particular favorite subsegment of mine from that era:

R&B going Bop
or
Bop ging R&B

Leo Parker is a prime example. Gene Ammons too. And some late 40s/early 50s R&B men at times got in some boppish overtones too. (Frank Motley & his "Fat Man's Scat" on Gotham is fun!)

[Gheorghe]

I allready posted the "Afro Cuban" (Spotlite). Machito , Howard McGhee, Brew Moore . 

Here is another edition of some of the stuff, it has more Machito from the late 40´s and Features also the Afro-Cubop Things made by Machito with Howard McGhee, Brew Moore.

I also tried to post the Charlie Parker Vol. 6 (Fiesta) on which you have the Parker-Machito tunes "Mangue Mangue" and "No Noise" but the System didn´t allow me the pic, I tried to make it smaller but nope…….

[BillF]

10 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I think once anyone's collection exceeds a certain number of records a discography is a must as a reference opus (and maybe as a "window shopping" catalog to whet your appetite ) - and to check which is which in order to avoid excessive duplications before buying (unless you have moneys to burn). Rust, Jepsen (books) and Bruyninckx (on CD) do it for me (Lord is way overpriced IMO for what I will get out of it beyond Bruyninckx et al and includes a LOT that is of no interest to me), and along with Goodrich-Dixon and Leadbitter/Slaven for blues plus Nicolausson, Ginell/Coffey, Lange and various others (including internet discographies) for niche segments of my music largely cover most of my needs. And I'd feel fairly naked without them.

 

Which brings up one particular favorite subsegment of mine from that era:

R&B going Bop
or
Bop ging R&B

Leo Parker is a prime example. Gene Ammons too. And some late 40s/early 50s R&B men at times got in some boppish overtones too. (Frank Motley & his "Fat Man's Scat" on Gotham is fun!)

Now diggin' "Fat Man's Scat". Never heard this one before! 

[Gheorghe]

On 25.2.2020 at 6:46 PM, JSngry said:

It's good enough from the big band's perspective, but the quintet pieces are what's rightfully legendary from that gig, imo.

IMHO the Big Band set has a worse Sound Quality than let´s say the Pasadena Concert. 

And Right, it´s the Combo set that made this date famous. 

The first Pressing of it that I had , some of the longer tracks were splitted in Part 1 and Part 2. 

Later I bought the CD with the whole concert (it´s said minus the tracks with Ella Fitzgerald, (How High the Moon, I think)  they were not published due to bad Sound Quality" . 

But the Combo set is among the most exiting Things of Diz and Bird. "Dizzy Atmosphere" is so fast, it seems that the Rhythm section struggles on it. John Lewis is barely audible. 

It took me years to master "Dizzy Atmosphere". Or, let´s say when I started playing in public in 1978 I had difficulties to Play that fast in A flat, but I don´t know how it came, two or three years ago I tried it again and it was no appearant difficulties. Maybe the out Chorus (shout Chorus) is a bit a challenge, but I love to Play that tune. 

The Studio Version from the 1945 sides is at a moderate tempo, which is strange since I know it otherwise only with rapid tempo, like the Carnegie Hall Version and the 1950 Birdland Version Bird/Fats/Bud. That´s also very fast. Blakey is fantastic on it. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Gheorghe

[jazzcorner]

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I also tried to post the Charlie Parker Vol. 6 (Fiesta) on which you have the Parker-Machito tunes "Mangue Mangue" and "No Noise" but the System didn´t allow me the pic, I tried to make it smaller but nope…….

Looks like there are 2 different versions of Vol. 6 (Fiesta).

The tunes mentioned above are not on my copy.

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by jazzcorner
typos

[Gheorghe]

9 minutes ago, jazzcorner said:

Looks like there are 2 different versions of Vol. 6 (Fiesta).

The tunes mentioned above are not on my copy.

 

 

 

Yes, that´s the cover I tried to post. 

On my copy (it´s Japan Import) there is also the sides with Machito. It seems that the japanes LPs had longer playing time. 

Seeing the liner notes I also thought About something I Always noticed: Other than liner notes by let´s say Leonard Feather or Ira Gitler etc. , here the most written stuff doesn´t really have anything to do with the recorded Music. Only at the end he mentions the tunes played on that Album....

I never really dug the Verve liner notes…...

[Gheorghe]

Since the 1947 Carnegie Hall Concert was mentioned and asked to be discussed, here is the other, lesser known Dizzy Gillespie-Charlie Parker encounter from TownHall. 

It´s interesting that here the piano is very well recorded and not only Diz and Bird, but Al Haig also get´s a lot of solo spot. 

And very fine Sid Catlett sittin in on the last two numbers. 

On the later Carnegie Hall concert the piano is barely audible, John Lewis is almost unheard. 

[jazzcorner]

12 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Yes, that´s the cover I tried to post. 

On my copy (it´s Japan Import) there is also the sides with Machito. It seems that the japanes LPs had longer playing time. 

Seeing the liner notes I also thought About something I Always noticed: Other than liner notes by let´s say Leonard Feather or Ira Gitler etc. , here the most written stuff doesn´t really have anything to do with the recorded Music. Only at the end he mentions the tunes played on that Album....

I never really dug the Verve liner notes…...

 

Problem solved: The 2 additional tracks are printed only on label B and  not on the replica cover. So we have the same edition I think.

Re original liner notes: yes I do agree. Not much about the music itself.

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by jazzcorner
text correction

[BillF]

A wonderful album, beginning with several radio-relayed live tracks from the Royal Roost which truly live up to Symphony Sid's description of "crazy", "gone" and "frantic".

We then move to the cool beauty of a studio session with Sims, Cohn, Getz and Mulligan in the sax section before going on to a fascinating retrospective interview with Chubby and finishing with the (for me) more familiar sounds of the Conte, Socolow, Levy and Denzil outfit that visited Sweden.

I take it Mr Nessa had a hand in the production of this one, in which case congratulations Chuck and many, many thanks! 

[Gheorghe]

8 hours ago, BillF said:

A wonderful album, beginning with several radio-relayed live tracks from the Royal Roost which truly live up to Symphony Sid's description of "crazy", "gone" and "frantic".

We then move to the cool beauty of a studio session with Sims, Cohn, Getz and Mulligan in the sax section before going on to a fascinating retrospective interview with Chubby and finishing with the (for me) more familiar sounds of the Conte, Socolow, Levy and Denzil outfit that visited Sweden.

I take it Mr Nessa had a hand in the production of this one, in which case congratulations Chuck and many, many thanks! 

Those Uptown records really are something. 

Symphony Sid was something. Though some people, including musicians didn´t love him, I think that voices like his  were important to make jazz more popular. All those …... "come by, relax and have a wonderful time with a lot of musical fun, with those wonderful guys…." Hip talk like this for advertising jazz  isn´t any more.  

When I was young we also had a good jazz DJ on radio, and his voice also was a "trademark". 

Influencers like those personalities  really put your coat to some records, so you went to the record dealer and bought them or you went were this guy  would tell you that you can meet "the gonest"..... 

When I was a boy, my dream was if I wouldn´t become a jazz musician, I might become a radio DJ for jazz. And believe it or not: I spinned my few Jazz LPs settled a taperecorder and a mike and between tracks I´d comment them with a very deep "supa cool" voice and recorded all those Proceedings on tape. So I produced hours of "my own Radio jazz program" where I would be the MC.....

Years later I discovered those home-made tapes and had to laugh, to hear that unfinished voice of an adolescent, trying to make "cool talk" . Too bad I threw them away when we moved downstairs….

[BillF]

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

 

Hip talk like this for advertising jazz  isn´t any more.  

When I was young we also had a good jazz DJ on radio, and his voice also was a "trademark". 

 

Too early to write off hip jazz radio presentation. I'd nominate David Brent Johnson on WFIU's Night Lights (our very own Ghost of Miles) as keeper of the flame where cool jazz radio is concerned.  

[Gheorghe]

22 minutes ago, BillF said:

 

 

 

Too early to write off hip jazz radio presentation. I'd nominate David Brent Johnson on WFIU's Night Lights (our very own Ghost of Miles) as keeper of the flame where cool jazz radio is concerned.  

Well, I must admit I don´t have a Radio anymore. I have a Denon CD Player, and on top of it a Turntable, that´s all.

During the golden days of Radio, in my case 1973/74 I had a Radio About this Kind of model, and somehow connected it to a simple tape Recorder and recorded the jazz programs. 

When my record and CD Collections grew larger and larger I didn´t listen to Radio anymore. As much as I know, jazz on Radio here in Austria is at a quite late hour, when I already Sleep during week time since I have to get up early in the morning. 

But those were the days, those fancy radios, in my case I got my own radio of this type after my grandmother died, I got a fossile Radio and a fossile TV also made with wood.....

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, BillF said:

Too early to write off hip jazz radio presentation. I'd nominate David Brent Johnson on WFIU's Night Lights (our very own Ghost of Miles) as keeper of the flame where cool jazz radio is concerned.  

I think Gheorghe was referring to the typical "hip fast talkers" of the day. That's another segment of radio presenters. More akin over here to how Jean-Claude Averty (a very fitting name - "averti" in French meaning "in the know" ) acted on French radio in his long-standing "Les cinglés du Music Hall" show. He wasn't just fast talking, but agitated, exuberant and almost on the verge of going overboard with his sheer enthusiasm. Even more so because there was a second presenter on the show who (probably totally unintentionally but just dictacted by HIS personality) acted as a sort of "straight man" to Averty, and this brought out the airwaves presence and contrast of Averty even more sharply.

 

[BillF]

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Well, I must admit I don´t have a Radio anymore. I have a Denon CD Player, and on top of it a Turntable, that´s all.

During the golden days of Radio, in my case 1973/74 I had a Radio About this Kind of model, and somehow connected it to a simple tape Recorder and recorded the jazz programs. 

When my record and CD Collections grew larger and larger I didn´t listen to Radio anymore. As much as I know, jazz on Radio here in Austria is at a quite late hour, when I already Sleep during week time since I have to get up early in the morning. 

But those were the days, those fancy radios, in my case I got my own radio of this type after my grandmother died, I got a fossile Radio and a fossile TV also made with wood.....

Don't start me talking about jazz radio in the past or I'll be telling you about how I used to listen with my ear to the loudspeaker trying to hear Willis Conover introducing the Voice of America Jazz Hour or jazz on American Forces Network from Germany through a barrage of static! (Perhaps this is why I have little sympathy for people who bemoan the lack of present-day recording quality in those 40s bebop tracks! As far as listening goes, I was raised in the hard school!)

Edited February 28, 2020 by BillF

[brownie]

Averty was Jean-Christophe. I miss his radio shows on the French ORTF broadcasts.

[BillF]

This multi-session compilation from 1947-48 is well worth hearing. The high point for me are several tracks where Stan is joined by Wardell and Dodo.

[Gheorghe]

18 hours ago, BillF said:

Don't start me talking about jazz radio in the past or I'll be telling you about how I used to listen with my ear to the loudspeaker trying to hear Willis Conover introducing the Voice of America Jazz Hour or jazz on American Forces Network from Germany through a barrage of static! (Perhaps this is why I have little sympathy for people who bemoan the lack of present-day recording quality in those 40s bebop tracks! As far as listening goes, I was raised in the hard school!)

I understand what you say. And right, I also met people who said "I don´t like that because the sound quality is not good". But......what music ! 

[Big Beat Steve]

18 hours ago, brownie said:

Averty was Jean-Christophe. I miss his radio shows on the French ORTF broadcasts.

My mistake, sorry. He certainly WAS a character, and his radio shows spinning all that 20s and 30s or 40s dance bands, singers and semi-jazz (but often outright jazz too) made you aware of a lot of artists that you had never heard of before and later knew better where to place them when you came across them in the record stalls. Budding collectors learnt a lot there. Only his "Frenchized" pronounciation of those U.S. artists' names sometimes was a tough nut to crack (particularly at his talking speed ). It took me a while to figure out, for example, that that "Abbé Le Mans" band leader he was talking about actually was Abe Lyman!

18 hours ago, BillF said:

Don't start me talking about jazz radio in the past or I'll be telling you about how I used to listen with my ear to the loudspeaker trying to hear Willis Conover introducing the Voice of America Jazz Hour or jazz on American Forces Network from Germany through a barrage of static! (Perhaps this is why I have little sympathy for people who bemoan the lack of present-day recording quality in those 40s bebop tracks! As far as listening goes, I was raised in the hard school!)

Same here. Even in the 70s and 80s this WAS an issue, particularly if you tried to catch relatively far away stations on AM and long wave radio that had interesting music shows. Made me quite tolerant of the fidelity of not quite so pristine 78s.