The Lennie Tristano-Herbie Hancock connection

[AllenLowe]

well, I caught a lot of shit recently for positing that Lennie Tristano was a prime influence on Herbie Hancock. So I'm watching the Steve Allen Show clip of Miles doing Kind of Blue from 1964; some way through Herbie's solo, what does he do? A minute or so of pure Tristano derivatives (it occurs, on the clip I watched, at 7:39) based on a classic Lennie phrase device.

Take that you yahoos, and never question the great Allini's musical judgment ever again.

I forgive you, tempted as I am to smote you all (or I might say: Stryker 3, you're out) -

Edited August 2, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Uh....the word under contention was "prime", not "influence".

[AllenLowe]

right, so said-eth I. And one does not borrow that closely from another without pledging some prior and deep allegiance.

[AllenLowe]

.

[Larry Kart]

Allen -- I can't say for sure, but I suspect that Tristano and Hancock (in this passage) are drawing on a common source, a portion of a J.S. Bach piece that a whole lot of pianists are introduced to in their student days. If so, it's not impossible that Hancock encountered it as filtered through Tristano, but if it does come from a Bach piece, I think it's more likely that Hancock (who had classical training, I believe) got it from J. Sebastian and didn't need to pick it up from Tristano.

[Larry Kart]

P.S. As we know, Bud Powell frequently played (and recorded for Blue Note) the Solfeggieto of Bach's son C.P.E. Bach, which of course falls under the fingers of hundreds of thousands of student pianists.

[coreymwamba]

The pianist Chris Anderson was a major influence on him and his teacher/mentor. Also from Chicago...

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/cds/56922.php

There are a few samples on there - but there is a beautiful [and in my opinion, better] solo album called From The Heart, where you can hear the "blood line", so to speak.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heart-Chris-Anderson/dp/B0000666DE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280733762&sr=8-2

[JSngry]

We need somebody with a database.

[.:.impossible]

Yeah. Too bad Lord, AMG, Penguin, or Mike Fitzgerald don't keep tabs on references during improvised solos.

If only there were one decent jazz database out there.

If only there was one person out there enough to keep a database on obscured jazz musicians.

[7/4]

If only there was one person out there enough to keep a database on obscured jazz musicians.

and late night talk shows.

[AllenLowe]

this reminds me of an old sociology argument - if you have a group that comes MOST SPECIFICALLY from another tradition (in this case Herbie out of jazz piano) and they exhibit a trait that can be recognized in that tradition, the strongest indicator is that they are reflecting the influence of that tradition.

So here's Herbie - playing a phrase that refers to one of Lennie Tristano's FAVORITE harmonic gestures - and where do we look? Bach? No. The classical tradition? No. No no no no no no no no no

TRISTANO.

saying that this instance is from Bach is the equivalent, in sociology terms again, of those people who insisted the blues, because it has call and response which is heard in the great white Protestant tradition, is a White Protestant music.

doesn't work. than and now.Unless Herbie is a White Protestant.

Edited August 2, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

Allen -- Let's leave Herbie out of the equation for the moment. Lennie, according to you, wasn't steeped in Bach, however personal his translation/extension of JSB's music was? The evidence, aural and verbal, that Lennie was an overt Bach-lover is considerable, no? ( I'd even go so as to say (doing an Allen imitation?), No Bach, no Lennie. Yes, Lennie was also undeniably himself and (we both agree) a major figure, but...

You say, "So here's Herbie - playing a phrase that refers to one of Lennie Tristano's FAVORITE harmonic gestures etc." I'm saying that those gestures of Lennie's are possibly, even probably Bach-derived, etc. You hear no Bach in them? OK, you don't. But, quoting from Eunmi Shim's "Lennie Tristano: His Life and Music": "Tristano remarked later on [about] playing Bach with jazz feeling: 'Another thing we used to do in those days, 1949, Warne Marsh, Lee Konitz and Billy Bauer used to play Bach fugues. And it sounded beautiful; with a good strong jazz feeling.' With Tristano's background in classical music, Bach was probably the main source for his interest in linearity and counterpoint."

[AllenLowe]

no, no - I am not disagreeing that Lenny was steeped in Bach - only that if one pianist uses a specific device, and another, obviously influenced by that prior pianist, uses the same device LATER - in the same way in the service of the same type of music - well, than, the most obvious conclusion is that it is related to that musical connection between the two - and in this case I see a DEEP connection. And no other pianist have I heard use that phrase except Lenny (and also Sal Mosca, so I figure he ALSO got it from Bach since he and Lennie had no association) -

allright, enough sarcasm sorry - but further proof are the words of a pianist I knew who studied under Mosca and who described that specific device (revolving around a diminished arpeggio) to me as one taught by Mosca a la Lenny.

Edited August 2, 2010 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

allright lets go a little further -

let's face it, half the world of jazz piano probably studied Bach in their youth - so find me another example of the use of this phraseology.

in the absence of such an example, I would surmise that we could surmise that everyone else should surmise that the two pianists who have played such - no, the three, if we add Mosca - are related in their use of prior models - and what they have most is common is Lenny, mean and surly as he was.

Edited August 2, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Either way, it's proof that Herbie's "prime influence"was a white guy.

The list continues!

Sarcasm aside... it's a flat-out ridiculous statement to make that Herbie's prime influence was Lennie. Just as ridiculous as it is to claim that there was no influence there whatsoever. Sure, it's a Bach thing, but Wayne had that Warne thing at times, so I'd not be surprised but that Miles himsel pulled their coattails on Lennie at some point.

Besides, Lennie was never on Letterman, and the databases show that both Mile and Herbie were. So ther you have it.

[Larry Kart]

Lord knows I don't want to do the research involved (wild horses, wouldn't...) but I have a feeling that the nascent Herbie H. might have dug Billy Taylor.

I know -- another white guy.

[JSngry]

Man, I thought you were kidding, but... http://www.benefityear.com/sl/Players/Billy-Taylor

[coreymwamba]

Is it this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEvqGVV3qsA

I can see a link [cf. the Complexes] - but "prime" might be pushing it...

It reminds me a bit of the opening of Bach's Chromatic Fantasy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGO0wbRdI4Y

but it's a small fragment of Hancock's musical statement - there's the whole rest of the solo to consider. And as he studied classical piano, what are the odds he got it from a piece he had been taught? But still: it's really interesting to hear the coincidences! Sent me on a Tristano/Gould trip today.

[Big Wheel]

Is it this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEvqGVV3qsA

I can see a link [cf. the Complexes] - but "prime" might be pushing it...

It reminds me a bit of the opening of Bach's Chromatic Fantasy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGO0wbRdI4Y

but it's a small fragment of Hancock's musical statement - there's the whole rest of the solo to consider. And as he studied classical piano, what are the odds he got it from a piece he had been taught? But still: it's really interesting to hear the coincidences! Sent me on a Tristano/Gould trip today.

Herbie used that broken triad thing quite a lot actually. Listen to his solo on "Witch Hunt" at the 6:18 mark (although he doesn't do that cool harmonizing thing with his left hand like he does on the All Blues solo). Not sure that this is specifically a Tristano device though there is something in the articulation/rhythmic displacement thing that kind of reminds me a bit of Tristano.

[AllenLowe]

the broken triad thing is prime Lenny, and was taught as part of his method - I've known several of his and his disciples' students. Just listen to Herbie - and realize that there were not many good role models for someone like him. (and remember how much an influence that whole school was on people like Hemphill, Braxton, et al, who saw them as the first avant garde.) This is the unwritten history of jazz.

as for "Sent me on a Tristano/Gould trip today" I'm not sure whether Dan Gould plays much piano, but we'll have to ask him.

also, note the difference between A prime influence and THE prime influence.

and then bite me again.

Edited August 5, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Any kind of "prime" influence is a reach.

As far as the Tristano influence on Braxton, et. al. being the "unwritten history of jazz"....no way. Braxton in particular has given big props to them guys, and has gone out of his way to do so.

I really don't understand the need to be concerned with the "written" history anyway...them who have ears to hear will hear, and them who don't won't. Pockets of bliss aside, the written history has never served this music particularly well or particularly accurately. At best, it's made it more packageable and/or inviting and/or approachable. That's important, but only as far as it goes.

Then again, that's true of damn near anything - you don't get it by reading about it. You get it by getting it. Then you can write about it, and that's all good. But...if all the "history" books drew the line from Tristano to Braxton, and if all the people who read that believed it...most people would be just as half-aware as they are now, just in a different way.Besides, just as with Herbie, there's a lot of lines that go to Braxton, and anybody who draws them all ain't gonna have a book for the masses, if you know what I mean.

Edited August 5, 2010 by JSngry

[JSngry]

To that end, the overwhelming majority of the "jazz books" that have meant the most to me have not been "histories", but have instead been personal recollections, impressions, interviews, oral histories, etc. Individual stories that one can then weigh against other like (or unlike!) them to decide how it all fits together & what it all "means".

Edited August 5, 2010 by JSngry

[AllenLowe]

but the conventional wisdom in jazz was, for a long time, that Tristano was a great musician but historically diminished by his lack of influence - this was something repeated over and over during my formative years (late '60s and 1970s).

yes, it has changed somewhat. But I think everything needs to be written down, over and over, until we don't forget. Especially as we witness the the new, post-literate world of a-historians.

Edited August 5, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

but the conventional wisdom in jazz was, for a long time, that Tristano was a great musician but historically diminished by his lack of influence - this was something repeated over and over during my formative years (late '60s and 1970s).

And that was actually a fairly legitmate claim then, given that the really overt influences didn't begin to be heard/felt until the mid-70s.

Truthfully, I still have a problem with Lennie himself overall...too much "theory" is on top of (or sometimes is all there is) too much of his playing (notable exceptions, sure, but...). It's with Lee & Warne that the theory turns into "real music" (imo). Lennie's more a Professor X type to me, a brilliant mind, but ultimately crippled, than a real X-Man.

You get Warne & Lee, though, especially Warne, and then that's when that quantum shit starts happening that Lennie (mostly) only conceptualized.

[.:.impossible]

That x-men analogy is thought-provoking.