Stupid question for our resident musicians...

[Shrdlu]

"Row Your Boat" is an excellent example of a 6/8. 6/8s are usually brisk like that. The one-two, one-two thing that I mentioned above is perfect for marches, as it becomes left-right, left-right, ...

There is a similar difference between 4/4 and 2/2. 2/2s are usually brisk, too, and are used a lot for marches and so-called "incidental music", such as "The Land of Chocolate" music on The Simpsons. "Colonel Bogey" is a 2/2 march. 2/2s, also known as "cut time" and sometimes denoted by a C with a vertical line through it, show up in jazz and dance music. Miles used 2/2 a lot in the 50s, with "All of You" being a typical example. He got that idea from Ahmad Jamal.

I sometimes lead the songs in our Church services. I remember that one song was written as 4/4, but it was really a 2/2 and I had to conduct it that way. They are not the same.

[Jim Alfredson]

Isn't Row Row Row Your Boat in 4?

[Joe G]

I was thinking the same thing last night, but didn't post it.

123 456 1 2 3 456

row row row your boat ... is a unnatural way to count it, for me at least.

edit: can't seem to get the numbers and lyrics to line up.

Edited March 18, 2004 by Joe G

[JSngry]

123 456 1 2 3 456

row row row your boat ... is a unnatural way to count it, for me at least.

Yeah, but if you put a drum beat to it. Whacha' gonna play - 4 or 3(ish)?

The 6/8 thing comes in handy when writing too - you don't have to write "3" over all the "triplets" that end up in the music, and the other phrases have an almost-swing built in, which is a function of the compound meter business. There's a 3 & a 2 feel happening simultaneously.

[Jazz]

I thought "row row row your boat" was in 12/8?? Measures of 4 beats divided into 3 even subdivisions?

I am probably wrong, but I always thought the main difference between 3/4 and 6/8 (besides the notational differences) were in the articulations and phrasing. In compound time the groups of three will sound and feel like subdivisions of the beat and in simple time each pulse in the group of three will feel like the base pulse.

I guess I always try and see whether or not I feel comfortable tapping my foot once every three pulses (compound time) or with every pulse in the group of three (simple time).

[Jazzmoose]

I'm beginning to think I came to the wrong place to ask my question...

[Joe G]

Word!

[Shrdlu]

"Row Your Boat" is a typical 6/8, not a 4. "Pop Goes The Weasel" is another. This is as certain as the fact that F major has one flat in it (B flat).

There's no question, or room for debate. If there's any uncertainty, you'll have to have some basic music lessons, on any instrument.

So, next question, please?

[7/4]

Row, Row, Row Your Boat

3 part round

Row, row, row your boat,

Gently down the stream.

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,

Life is but a dream.

Row, Row, Row Your Boat (alternate version)

Submitted by Claudia Anderson, Girl Scout Junior Troop 690, Goodyear, Arizona

Propel, Propel, Propel your craft

Placidly down the liquid solution

Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,

Existence is but an illusion.

[7/4]

Row Your Boat Mantra:

A Buddhist Commentary

by Todd Barton

The Mantra

Row, row, row1 your boat,2

Gently,3 down the stream,4

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,5

Life is but a dream.6

The Commentary

  1. Row, row, row. In form and structure this triple repetition of the imperative, row parallels the daily Buddhist invocation of the Three Jewels: "Homage to the Buddha, Homage to the Dharma, and Homage to the Sangha." One could, for example, say, "Row for the Buddha, Row for the Dharma, and Row for the Sangha."

      Texturally, however, the word row is more closely linked to the Sanskrit word gate, which means "to go", and which begins the famous Heart Sutra Mantra:

      gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha

      which translates as "Go, go, go perfectly and completely to build the path for enlightenment." Thus, the word row in our text is a shorthand for the Heart Sutra Mantra and may be construed as "I row towards enlightenment."

  2. your boat. It is your boat. You built this boat with your karma. It is nobody else's boat. It is nobody else's karma. You are rowing this boat toward enlightenment. It is your karmic stream.

  3. Gently. This is a call to go toward enlightenment gently, without force. It is like  the gentle observation of your breath in meditation. Furthermore, it beckons us to undertake all actions, thoughts and deeds in gentleness and pure awareness. It should also be mentioned that some Buddhist scholars believe this word to refer to the Taoist/Buddhist concept of wu-wei, "nondoing."

  4. Down the stream. The "stream of Life." The daily dharma. The seemingly  endless stream of death and rebirth. Your karmic stream.

  5.  Merrily, merrily… This is a reference to the "merry" or "happy" state experienced in meditation. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, "This happiness arises when we become free of incessant worrying and preoccupation, and from the fact that the body and mind are at ease".1 Thus, a direct result of meditation is the ability to row down the Stream of Life gently and merrily.

  6. Life is but a dream. Of course, poetically, "dream" rhymes with "stream". But we might also say that spiritually "dream" and "stream" rhyme. Stream, as we have seen, refers to this life, which is Maya – impermanent and illusory – which is ultimately a Dream. Meditate on the impermanence of all Dharmas.

The Paraphrase

(Homage to the Buddha, Homage to the Dharma, Homage to the Sangha.)

Aware of your karmic stream,

Go along easily, completely and perfectly

Toward enlightenment in you daily life.

Happily, happily, happily,

Meditate on the impermanence

Of all Dharmas.

When chanted, this mantra is cyclical, its beginning and end are One. In form, it is like the Wheel of Samsara. In practice, it can be chanted endlessly until you boat reaches the Other Shore, the Shore of Enlightenment.

1 Reprinted by permission from Breathe! You Are Alive: Sutra on the Full Awareness of Breathing by Thich Nhat Hanh, Parallax Press, 1990.

[Jazz]

"Row Your Boat" is a typical 6/8, not a 4. "Pop Goes The Weasel" is another. This is as certain as the fact that F major has one flat in it (B flat).

There's no question, or room for debate. If there's any uncertainty, you'll have to have some basic music lessons, on any instrument.

So, next question, please?

Um actually it isn't unreasonable to hear "row row row your boat" and think 4 - since 6/8 is a compound duple meter. If someone hears it in 4 then they are just interpreting it as a compound quadruple meter. Not a big difference...

[JSngry]

Yeah, well, that Buddist stuff is cool and all that, but it's too complicated and wordy for modern needs.

To wit: quoth The Chords - "Life could be a dream. Doo do do doot, Sha-Boom".

That's more to the point AND there's a tenor solo, which is kinda what it's all about in the end anyway, right?

[7/4]

That's more to the point AND there's a tenor solo, which is kinda what it's all about in the end anyway, right?

Which makes me think...I can hear this as being in 12/8 with a bit of a Greensleeves approach.

[Jazzmoose]

Which makes me think...I can hear this as being in 12/8 with a bit of a Greensleeves approach.

Now, cut that out!!

[7/4]

[Joe G]

"Row Your Boat" is a typical 6/8, not a 4. "Pop Goes The Weasel" is another. This is as certain as the fact that F major has one flat in it (B flat).

There's no question, or room for debate. If there's any uncertainty, you'll have to have some basic music lessons, on any instrument.

So, next question, please?

Going back to basics is never a bad idea...

[mikeweil]

6/8 and 3/4 are NOT the same, because these are time signatures, not mathematical fractions! It's a common error, even most musicians forget that. You may not reduce 6/8 by 2 to get 3/4.

In time signatures the upper figure tells you the number of notes to the bar, and the lower figure tells you what type of note these are. This does not imply identical numbers of beats per bar!

3/4 time is usually counted with three beats to the bar.

6/8 time used to be counted with two (!) beats to the bar, giving it (in modern terminology) a "triplet feel".

The counterpart in time signatures divided by two to 6/8 was seen in 2/2 time, which is rarely used today.

This all has its roots in European baroque music, where they started developping sytems of time signatures just as they developped harmonic systems. Johann Sebastian Bach used several dozen time signatures to differentiate very clearly between different rhythmic feelings, tempos and basic accents, it was written down by his student Kirnberger, but this was simplified to only few time signatures within 50 years after his death. When he wrote something in 12/8, it was not the same as a 4/4 in eighth note triplets, because triplets were always seen as an exception.

Anyway, his system was much clearer, but most of this knowledge has been lost.

The possibility of multiple division of a 6/8 or 12/8 meter is an African device, imported into Spanish music through Northern Africa.

The so-called hemiola is a 12-12-12-123-123 subdivision. (to be read one-two etc.)

You alternate 3 x 2 and 2 x 3. This is frequently used in Flamenco music.

In 12/8 you can chose between 4 x 3, 3 x 4, 2 x 6, and 6 x 2 - most African rhythms use all these subdivisions equally and simultaneously, as do Afro-Cuban Bembé and Abakuá rhythms, among others. This multi-beat structure is what makes them so sophisticated for most non-Latin musicians. There is no clear and dominant beat structure, like the lack of a clear tonal centre in polytonality.

Rhythmic theory in Western music theory is a MESS!!!!!

Edited March 20, 2004 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

Rhythmic theory in Western music theory is a MESS!!!!!

...which is usually what happens when a degree of seperation between the natural & the intellectial is imposed...

[Brandon Burke]

123 456 1 2 3 456

row row row your boat ... is a unnatural way to count it, for me at least.

I hate to bring this back up but it's kind of bugging me. Has been for a while now. Seems to me that if you count "Row Row Row Your Boat" in 6 then you're actually counting in 16th notes. Not 8ths. If I'm hearing this right, you're counting at the pace of, say, the hi hats on Sly Stone "Hot Fun in the Summertime". And I hear those as 16ths.

[Joe G]

123 456 1 2    3      456

row row row your boat ... is a unnatural way to count it, for me at least.

I hate to bring this back up but it's kind of bugging me. Has been for a while now. Seems to me that if you count "Row Row Row Your Boat" in 6 then you're actually counting in 16th notes. Not 8ths. If I'm hearing this right, you're counting at the pace of, say, the hi hats on Sly Stone "Hot Fun in the Summertime". And I hear those as 16ths.

I'm not sure I follow you. It's been a while since I've heard Hot Fun, but I think, instead of hi hats, you meant to say the ride cymbal, then it's actually a triplet feel, not simply 8ths or 16ths. It would be 8th note triplets, right? Or did I totally misunderstand you?

[Brandon Burke]

123 456 1 2    3      456

row row row your boat ... is a unnatural way to count it, for me at least.

I hate to bring this back up but it's kind of bugging me. Has been for a while now. Seems to me that if you count "Row Row Row Your Boat" in 6 then you're actually counting in 16th notes. Not 8ths. If I'm hearing this right, you're counting at the pace of, say, the hi hats on Sly Stone "Hot Fun in the Summertime". And I hear those as 16ths.

I'm not sure I follow you. It's been a while since I've heard Hot Fun, but I think, instead of hi hats, you meant to say the ride cymbal, then it's actually a triplet feel, not simply 8ths or 16ths. It would be 8th note triplets, right? Or did I totally misunderstand you?

I think you heard me right and, come to think of it, I guess that was ride afetr all. Always though of those as closed hats but, like you, it's been a looooong time since I heard that song. I was tapping my forefinger on the table as I was counting this out last night and realized, "Hey, that sounds like Sly." That's really the only reason why I chose that tune.

Regardless, I see what you're saying about triplets. That makes perfect sense. If there weren't any accents leading to the triplet feel they would indeed be 16th notes, though, right? And for the sake of this argument--we're talking about "Row Your Boat" remember--a count that fast is the only way to get a legitimate feel in 6. Follow me? And if that's the case then it wouldn't be 6/8 would it? Because the count is too fast.

I hope that makes sense.

Edited March 26, 2004 by Brandon Burke

[Free For All]

If I'm understanding all this, it seems to me that the important difference between 16ths and triplets is that the former appears in groups of four and the latter in groups of three.

If I'm remembering "Hot Fun" correctly, the ride pattern is triplets (1-and-a 2-and-a 3-and-a 4-and-a, at the risk of sounding like Lawrence Welk) so the meter might be considered to be 12/8............as opposed to 16ths (1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a etc.), or 4/4 meter. Think of the wakka-wakka guitar on Shaft.

Edited March 26, 2004 by Free For All

[Brandon Burke]

If I'm understanding all this, it seems to me that the important difference between 16ths and triplets is that the former appears in groups of four and the latter in groups of three.

If I'm remembering "Hot Fun" correctly, the ride pattern is triplets (1-and-a 2-and-a 3-and-a 4-and-a, at the risk of sounding like Lawrence Welk) so the meter might be considered to be 12/8............as opposed to 16ths (1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a etc.), or 4/4 meter. Think of the wakka-wakka guitar on Shaft.

Cool. I was just talking about this with a guy at work about and hour ago and he said the exact same thing.

[Joe G]

The EXACT same thing? That's uncanny!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The basic idea that 6/8 is a compound time seems to be getting lost. No one is advocating tapping your foot SIX times in each measure for Row, Row, Row Your Boat. The whole point is that you tap your foot TWICE. Each tap has three subdivisions. That's what makes it compound as opposed to simple.

While triplets happen in groups of three (anything else wouldn't be triplets), there is absolutely no reason why sixteenth notes can't happen in groups of three. This happens in *compound* meters - 3/16, 6/16, 9/16, 12/16, for example.

To decide whether something is 4/4 with triplets or 12/8, one should probably check whether there are any instances of even eighth notes - simple subdivision - if this is fairly common and the triplets - compound subdivision - are the exception, then 4/4 is probably the better choice. However, if just about everything is a triplet, then 12/8 is a better choice.

The above is null and void in notating jazz, since the swing is not indicated accurately in the rhythmic notation. We write what appear to be even eighth notes but we play long-short uneven swing eighths that are often identical to quarter-eighth patterns in 12/8.

Mike