Jazzmoose Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Okay, this one's making me feel stupid AND crazy. I thought I had at least learned enough to figure out time signatures for songs, but this one song popped into my head the other day, and I can't figure it out... Song is "El Paso". You know, the one Marty Robbins sang. Can anyone help? With or without "you idiot!" comments is fine! Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 I would say it's in 6/8.. which means you'd count it like this: 1...2...3... 4...5..6... 1...2...3... 4...5..6... 1...2...3... 4...5..6... etc. It's definately a "3" feel... like a waltz, but it seems to be in two-bar phrases, which is why I would consider it 6/8. But you could also just count it in three's... as in 1...2...3... 1...2...3... Same difference... Quote
Jazzmoose Posted March 16, 2004 Author Report Posted March 16, 2004 Thanks, Jim; I could tell the 3/4 just didn't quite cover things. That makes sense! (And thanks for omitting the "you idiot"! ) Quote
JSngry Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 People dance to it like it's a waltz, but musicians play it like it's in 6. Great song, actually. A lot more fun to sing harmony on than it is to listen to. Quote
Jazzmoose Posted March 16, 2004 Author Report Posted March 16, 2004 Whew! Now the thread seems right! Quote
Brad Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Well, here's another dumb question. But isn't 6/8 the same as 3/4, unless I suck at math. Quote
JSngry Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Sorry, time was (and is) short. But... Depends on the tempo, the feel, the phraseology, all that "internal" musical stuff. A lot of marches are actually written in 6/8, but felt in 2. Similarly, a lot of blues are more or less in 12/8, but you feel the beat as a slow 4, at least listening to the bass line. And 3/4 in no ways needs to always be a waltz. So - yes and no. Lots of variables - don't let the math fool ya'! Quote
7/4 Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Well, here's another dumb question. But isn't 6/8 the same as 3/4, unless I suck at math. 6 beats of 8th notes = 3 beats of quarter notes (4), because two 8th notes = one quarter note. Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Like Jim said, don't let the math fool you. Yes, 6 eigths notes equal the same amount of time as 3 quarter notes, but it's more of a feel issue. As I mentioned, "El Paso" feels more like a "two feel". In other words, try singing the first line to yourself. Down in the west Texas town of El Paso The accents fall on "down", "west", "town" and "Pa". Down in the west Texas town of El Paso "Down in the west Texas" is all one phrase, with two accents... thus a "two" feel, thus two sets of three, thus 6/8. At least that's how I hear it. Quote
Sundog Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 A couple of real world examples c/o Miles that might help you distinguish the different feels. Someday My Prince Will Come (3/4) All Blues (6/8) Quote
JSngry Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 The faster tempos usually end up being thought of as being in 6 (probably becuse it's less taxing menatlly to count to six once than to three twice at a fast tempo), the slower ones in 3, but I guarandamntee you that if you're playing for dancers and they want A WALTZ that you better think, feel, and play it in 3 and nothing else no matter what the tempo. It DOES make a difference! Quote
Shrdlu Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Brad, it's been pretty well covered already, but 6/8 is a thing unto itself. It has a definite feel of its own, and isn't the same as 3/4. A 6/8 is mainly felt as a one two, one two, thing, where the one and the two each cover three beats. Lots of marches are in that time signature. (I don't know the names of the well-known marches, so I can't give you an example - sorry!) Quote
7/4 Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 (edited) Sort of like arguing how a A maj 7/E is different from an E 13? Edited March 16, 2004 by 7/4 Quote
Joe G Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Oh God, don't get us started on harmony again! Quote
Brandon Burke Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 (edited) Last week, I wrote a cascading piano line in 9/8 that rides over the end of a song in which everyone else is in 4. It serves as an outro part that I 'fade in' with about a minute or two to go. It must sound smooth because nobody noticed..... This is in a rock setting, mind you. EDIT: ...and played on the piano immediately to your left. B) Edited March 16, 2004 by Brandon Burke Quote
Uncle Skid Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Oh God, don't get us started on harmony again! Quote
Joe G Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Exactly. Get me worked up and I say shit that will never be lived down. Quote
Sundog Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 The faster tempos usually end up being thought of as being in 6 (probably becuse it's less taxing menatlly to count to six once than to three twice at a fast tempo), the slower ones in 3, but I guarandamntee you that if you're playing for dancers and they want A WALTZ that you better think, feel, and play it in 3 and nothing else no matter what the tempo. It DOES make a difference! That's interesting. I have a couple of different transcriptions of Tenderly that are in 3/4. Who the heck plays Tenderly in 3/4? I wonder if these were written for dance bands? Quote
Upright Bill Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Exactly. Get me worked up and I say shit that will never be lived down. To what are you refering? Quote
Upright Bill Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 I did an orchestra pit thing for a high school musical two years ago. The conductor did all of the 3/4 tunes in 1. Several members of the pit were high school students, talk about confused! Quote
maren Posted March 16, 2004 Report Posted March 16, 2004 Like Jim said, don't let the math fool you. Yes, 6 eigths notes equal the same amount of time as 3 quarter notes, but it's more of a feel issue. And then there's the old hemiola. Where what's been 6/8 turns into 3/4 (by way of accents) for a bar or two: 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 + 2 + 3 + (aka "1 2 3 4 5 6") (happens a lot in latin music, especially in 12/8 things) Quote
JSngry Posted March 18, 2004 Report Posted March 18, 2004 I have a couple of different transcriptions of Tenderly that are in 3/4. Who the heck plays Tenderly in 3/4? I wonder if these were written for dance bands? Lots of people USED to. It was originally written as a waltz, if my Jurassic-era fakebook is to be believed. Quote
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 18, 2004 Report Posted March 18, 2004 I'd say "All Blues" is a bad example - I wouldn't say it was 6/8 although it has been described that way. Maybe even notated that way. It's really 6/4, played like 2 bars of 3/4 joined at the hip. "All Blues" and "Someday My Prince Will Come" have way too much in common. The pulse is defined as the bass walks quarter notes in each. 6/8 is a compound meter - easiest example is "Row, Row, Row Your Boat." 3/4 is a simple meter - something like "America"/"God Save the Queen" or "The Star Spangled Banner" for that matter. Mike Quote
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