Does Oscar Peterson get a bad rap?

[Guy Berger]

On 9/13/2022 at 3:23 PM, Ken Dryden said:

I think musicians who played with Oscar Peterson would be more likely to praise his playing vs. condemning it.

Is this surprising? Musicians who didn’t like it would be far less likely to play with him

[danasgoodstuff]

2 hours ago, Pim said:

I think the central point in Petersons music is joy in playing.

I honestly don't hear that, more like a compulsive need to prove something and fill space.  I hear more joy in pretty much any name pianist you'd care to name.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

Is this surprising? Musicians who didn’t like it would be far less likely to play with him

The gig paid really well. 

[Peter Friedman]

Cynics rule!

[JSngry]

Just a fact. Do facts skew cynical? 

[jlhoots]

Weird thread as it always has been.

[Pim]

11 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

I honestly don't hear that, more like a compulsive need to prove something and fill space.  I hear more joy in pretty much any name pianist you'd care to name.

Honestly I do hear that. Apparently playing lots of notes could be fun. I also see it when he performs live, not only on his face but also on those of his companions. 

But hey we could go on endlessly like this. Enjoy all those other pianists. I will too and also enjoy some OP.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Pim

[ombudsman]

12 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

I honestly don't hear that, more like a compulsive need to prove something and fill space.  I hear more joy in pretty much any name pianist you'd care to name.

This is more of a big picture thing (whether anyone agrees or not) but I don't think anybody really has any idea what other people are feeling, other than obvious, kind of superficial, situational observations, like the person in the sun sweating with their mouth open is hot, or the person with the red face and the tensed up face is angry.

I get surprised by my own emotions fairly often. I think I'm having one and then in a moment it turns out to be another. How are other people supposed to read my mind when I've been me for half a century and I can't do it ?

Priming, expectations, and biases, now those can explain things.

 

 

[Gheorghe]

On 16.9.2022 at 1:51 AM, Rabshakeh said:

I wonder whether the OP's question should perhaps be put the other way around. Why was he so popular? 

For decades, Oscar Peterson was one of the world's most beloved jazz musicians. What's more, he was pure jazz. There's no argument about that (unlike the Sinatras, etc).

Why did people, and not just casual jazz fans, connect so much with his music?

Personally, I do not really enjoy his music. But there is clearly something there. I've enjoyed the Milt Jackson duo recommended upthread, and I definitely like the +1 album a lot. The Teddy Wilson comparisons probably aren't in Peterson's favour, but he's still solid, even as an accompanist.

In my country, and maybe in other European countries, Oscar Peterson was the most popular among mid-class to upper-class surroundings where usually classical music was spinned (or played at the piano). Oscar Peterson swung, so it gave them a bit of that "jazz-drive" feeling, he had an astonishing technique and seemed to be symphatic, disciplined. 

And in some magazin or newspaper there was a long story about Oscar Peterson, how much he practiced in his youth, how his father took care if every kid did his lessons, and it was Canada, not the Bronx or Sugar Hill. And always very articulate on stage, with that grinning, that big appearance and dressed for concert music I think, those middle-upperclass white people categorized him as a "well educated n.....ger". 

They all said he is "the best jazz pianist in the World" (and I doubt they would have heard about Bud, McCoy, Herbie, Cecil Taylor). Sure I had heard those Peterson "We Get Requests" (a nice album by the way) but when I heard Red Garland on my first Miles Davis LP I thought why I like him much more, and when I heard Jakie Byard on my first Mingus LP (I had those two LPs as my first jazz LPs) it was the same. I asked myself, why all those big heads talk about Oscar Peterson and don´t even know who those  "Red Garland and Jakie Byard" are. 

And to my big astonishment when I - still not knowing other artists than Miles and Mingus with their pianists - bought J.E.Behrends "Jazzbook", Peterson hardly was mentioned. 

So I think he was a very very good thing in first place for music lovers who liked him if the wanted to hear a "Jazz LP". This is not bad, because some of them would open up and listen to more of that jazz and become part of the desired paying audience for us.....

[Big Beat Steve]

13 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

I honestly don't hear that, more like a compulsive need to prove something and fill space.  I hear more joy in pretty much any name pianist you'd care to name.

FWIW, there is more than one contemporary printed source from the 50s that tried to make much the same point (or should I say complaint?) about Art Tatum. The gist of them: All virtuosity, all too little jazz content.

[danasgoodstuff]

1 hour ago, Pim said:

Honestly I do hear that. Apparently playing lots of notes could be fun. I also see it when he performs live, not only on his face but also on those of his companions. 

But hey we could go on endlessly like this. Enjoy all those other pianists. I will too and also enjoy some OP.

Hopefully we can discuss some music we both enjoy in the not too distant future.

Just now, Big Beat Steve said:

FWIW, there is more than one contemporary printed source from the 50s that tried to make much the same point (or should I say complaint?) about Art Tatum. The gist of them: All virtuosity, all too little jazz content.

And they were wrong about Tatum.  And that has no bearing on Peterson.  Every tub on its own bottom.

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes they were wrong. But it does have a bearing IMO because the parallels are there. And because just appreciation seems to take its time in some circles. Liking or not liking an artist is always a matter of personal tastes and is perfectly OK - but the fierce hostility that some seem to be so intent on splurting out strikes me as rather odd. As if they had an axe to grind and feel "offended" bcause he reaped fame that they would insist on seeing go elsewhere?
But did anyone ever force anyone else at gunpoint to listen to OP?
As for "filling space", different strokes and styles - apart from not everyone wanting a Basie-style pianist in his rhythm section and some probably appreciating that OP was not one of those that Lester Young wondered where their "left people" were, it cannot have been that bad, considering all the recordings where OP was part of the rhythm section. And considering the standing of the typical front line men of these sessions, it cannot have been a case of the front line having to rely on the "name" credentials of OP in the rhythm section for their sessions either. So he cannot have gotten in their way that badly. 
Funny, too, this "filling space" thing - I cannot remember many reviewing complaints of the overbearing drumming of Art Blakey on certain recordings (or Buddy Rich in a different style, for that matter ...) that came close to drowning out the horns. So maybe the musicians' playing styles just ought to be taken the way they were - like it (then listen to it) or not (then skip it). Makes you wonder again why some seem to need OP as an ongoing pet peeve.

[Big Beat Steve]

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

In my country, and maybe in other European countries, Oscar Peterson was the most popular among mid-class to upper-class surroundings where usually classical music was spinned (or played at the piano). Oscar Peterson swung, so it gave them a bit of that "jazz-drive" feeling, he had an astonishing technique and seemed to be symphatic, disciplined. 

And in some magazin or newspaper there was a long story about Oscar Peterson, how much he practiced in his youth, how his father took care if every kid did his lessons, and it was Canada, not the Bronx or Sugar Hill. And always very articulate on stage, with that grinning, that big appearance and dressed for concert music I think, those middle-upperclass white people categorized him as a "well educated n.....ger". 

They all said he is "the best jazz pianist in the World" (and I doubt they would have heard about Bud, McCoy, Herbie, Cecil Taylor). Sure I had heard those Peterson "We Get Requests" (a nice album by the way) but when I heard Red Garland on my first Miles Davis LP I thought why I like him much more, and when I heard Jakie Byard on my first Mingus LP (I had those two LPs as my first jazz LPs) it was the same. I asked myself, why all those big heads talk about Oscar Peterson and don´t even know who those  "Red Garland and Jakie Byard" are. 

And to my big astonishment when I - still not knowing other artists than Miles and Mingus with their pianists - bought J.E.Behrends "Jazzbook", Peterson hardly was mentioned. 

So I think he was a very very good thing in first place for music lovers who liked him if the wanted to hear a "Jazz LP". This is not bad, because some of them would open up and listen to more of that jazz and become part of the desired paying audience for us.....

That echoes my impressions from way back and normally this (relative) omnipresence should have made me wary because I usually like to explore my music (any style) to quite some degree off the trodden paths of the usual "name" suspects. It actually did not turn me off him but what I had heard on the radio and bought of him as part of the rhythm section on other leaders' recordings was enough for quite a while. It took me a long time to buy any OP leader date records at all; the first ones were his initial ones on Canadian RCA (as documentary and historical evidence of him as part of the body of recorded jazz of the FORTIES, nothing else, but fine enough for that). Then came that MPS LP mentioned earlier in this thread (an atypical case apart) and later I added several others from his Verve and Pablo days as they came my way at prices where you just cannot go wrong - including his "We Get Requests" which I have come to like as part of late-night listening programming for relaxation. (But this record did get a lujkewarm review too in certain circles so there you are ... )
Your comments on his stage presence and impression point hint at what no doubt was part of his success - not being an unpredictable nut job or an odd man out no doubt helped with the general public at large, particularly in Europe. (Which OTOH would should have guaranteed more sucess to the likes of Teddy Wilson, Hank Jones etc. too, but that's the way it goes ...)
And like in your case of Red Garland and Jaki Byard there always were other modern jazz pianists whose recordings I sought out much more actively - Al Haig, George Wallington, Dodo Mamarosa, Hampton Hawes a.o. But some OP is perfectly in order and has its place and cannot give rise to feeling offended.

Again - in the end it all boils down to personal tastes - listen to a musician if you like him enough, don't listen if you don't like him. And if the musician you don't like isn't even the leader but only a sideman it is for everyone to decide if this one would be off-putting enough. If so, don't listen (at least not more than once). I've heard more than one session that have been ruined (for me!) by this or that musician in the line-up who marred my listening experience. But I realize the leader was satisfied enough with that musician to use him (regularly even) so it was his choice and the listeners will have to live with it. But trying to wage wars because they find this or that one would be more deserving in the place of the "name" musician is and remains pointless. 

Somehow this entire debate reminds me of what you read elsewhere when the names of Dave Brubeck or George Shearing come up. "It's (Brubeck or Shearing or OP - check the applicable ) so there's GOT to be something to moan about ..."

Edited September 18, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[John L]

There are some people for whom Oscar Peterson is the face of jazz.   I have a one friend who owns several Oscar Peterson and no other jazz records.  So I wonder - is it that he doesn't really like jazz but somehow is drawn to Oscar Peterson?   Or is it that after listening to a few Oscar Peterson discs, he decided that he doesn't really like jazz enough to get anything more?

[JSngry]

Impeccable, at times astonishing, technique in the service of easily grasped, seldom challenging ideas. Couple that with an ingratiating and dignified demeanor and yes, broad scale popularity and acceptance will follow. SHOULD follow, actually. 

Some people like that kind of thing. 

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Somehow this entire debate reminds me of what you read elsewhere when the names of Dave Brubeck or George Shearing come up. "It's (Brubeck or Shearing or OP - check the applicable ) so there's GOT to be something to moan about ..."

I was going to make the Brubeck comparison upthread too.

Was Shearing in that category? 

[T.D.]

I don't listen much to OP, and when I do it's practically always in the "X with the Oscar Peterson Trio" format.

But tastes vary and I'm not into dissing musicians.

I was impressed by the fact that Hampton Hawes and Paul Bley, in their autobiographies, expressed high regard for OP.

Perhaps Hawes referred more to OP's generosity and geniality, but Bley extolled his musicianship.

So who am I to complain?

[JSngry]

Paul Bley was Canadian too. Those folks stick together to save money 

[Big Beat Steve]

 

1 hour ago, John L said:

There are some people for whom Oscar Peterson is the face of jazz.   I have a one friend who owns several Oscar Peterson and no other jazz records.  So I wonder - is it that he doesn't really like jazz but somehow is drawn to Oscar Peterson?   Or is it that after listening to a few Oscar Peterson discs, he decided that he doesn't really like jazz enough to get anything more?

File under "casual/occasional jazz listener". 
I've told the story of my late Ma before (not too long ago actually). She did listen to jazz in her somewhat earlier days (50s/60s) and did stress this when I got into jazz in the mid-70s but her jazz records consisted of several MJQ discs, two by George Gruntz and two of the inevitable "Play Bach". Now what would you make of THAT and what would THAT prove? Was it that after listening to a few Third Stream discs she decided that she didnt care enough about the rest in the field of jazz to get anything more?
Bless her memory but the more I think of it the more I think this likely was the reason. Not feeling comfortable enough with jazz per se to stray too far from substyles of jazz that had ties with classical music.
But what got me into discussions back then of course was that she claimed this (ie. Third Stream) was what all worthwhile jazz was all about.
And no doubt there are many out there who focus on a very, very narrow segment or style of jazz (or even a single artist?) and claim this is it and this is all and this is the ultimate in jazz wherever, whenever ...

Edited September 18, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[T.D.]

Just now, JSngry said:

Paul Bley was Canadian too. Those folks stick together to save money 

Both Montréalers as well. 

[JSngry]

It's a Blood Oath. 

[Milestones]

I always point to "If You Only Knew" as evidence that Oscar could and did play beautifully.  Not a hint of the vulgarity so many are harping on. There are several versions; I think the best is on the Pablo album, Live.  

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

I was going to make the Brubeck comparison upthread too.

Was Shearing in that category? 

Shearing was criticized for doing a lot of jazz/pop hybrid records, but in my experience, his playing was generally admired.  

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

her jazz records consisted of several MJQ discs, two by George Gruntz and two of the inevitable "Play Bach". 

Sorry to ask, but what were these? I find this long vanished music really interesting.

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Shearing was criticized for doing a lot of jazz/pop hybrid records, but in my experience, his playing was generally admired.  

Which of his records would you have found in the neglected jazz collection, next to Time Out and We Do Requests?

[Teasing the Korean]

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Which of his records would you have found in the neglected jazz collection, next to Time Out and We Do Requests?

From his earlier quintet period on MGM - which was his "jazzier" period - I have often found You're Hearing George Shearing, which was a comp that included "East of the Sun" and "September in the Rain," two that were early hits for him.

From the Capitol period - which is when he did lots of pop hybrid records with quintet plus orchestra - you're likely to find albums such as Velvet Carpet and anything with the word "satin" in the title.  

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Sorry to ask, but what were these? I find this long vanished music really interesting.

George Gruntz did some classical/jazz hybrid LPs.  Jacques Lousier did at least five volumes of Play Bach, in which Bach compositions are played by  Loussier's piano trio.  They date from a period in the 1960s in which baroque music in general and Bach in particular were experiencing a comeback of sorts.  The Swingle Singers and Wendy Carlos famously participated in the festivities.