Does Oscar Peterson get a bad rap?

[mjzee]

Now all we need is another thread about Keith Jarrett's vocalizations, and it'll be like old times!

[AllenLowe]

Sorry to go off; I can deal with any degree of disagreement, but his particular line of argument, which has been parroted on here more than once, is deeply insulting. 

[Brad]

Although I won’t go as far as Allen, based on his long history in music and his credentials, his views are entitled to some deference or at least respect.

If anything, this debate has presented a good opportunity to listen to some of OP’s music. 

[JSngry]

Yeah, let's remember that taste is subjective, but knowledge, and the depth or lack thereof, is not.

And most importantly, unilaterally assigning a motive to a question of a person's taste is an at best spurious gambit.

 

[Brad]

Here’s a review of the Mosaic in All About Jazz that some may wish to read.

Oscar Peterson: Oscar Peterson: The Complete Clef/Mercury Studio Recordings Of The Oscar Peterson Trio (1951-1953)

[Milestones]

At this point, I'm asking for recommendations.

Other than the Stratford Festival record, what are the best albums representing the Peterson/Ellis/Brown trio?    

 

[AllenLowe]

let me add, btw, that I like strong and technically aggressive pianists. To me, for one example, Eddie Costa on the private recordings he did with Tal Farlow shows how artistic this can be. Or Phineas Newborn after about 1962 (though I like most of all his last recordings, because they seem to indicate a slight impairment that has caused him to really think about what he plays).  Newborn is an interesting example. He can be ridiculously glib (his recording of Celia, as I have said before, is a disaster, nervous and crawling with notes). There is something about technically accomplished players that can effect the connectivity of the notes they play; everything is often too seamless, there is no air in the musical spaces because there are no spaces.

Edited December 12, 2019 by AllenLowe

[Milestones]

What do you think of pianists in the avant garde area--most particularly Cecil Taylor?

[Gheorghe]

1 minute ago, Milestones said:

What do you think of pianists in the avant garde area--most particularly Cecil Taylor?

I must admit I am not familiar with all his work, but as a pianist it´s the same thing, I like him integrated in a group like his Unit. So the things I enjoy most are "Unit Structures" and "Conquistador". That´s collective group work which I love . 

[Justin V]

No one has said that Allen isn't entitled to his opinion or that he is any way not a knowledgeable person.  Allen has known and worked with some legendary musicians, but I don't see why that should get him a free pass.

I have him on 'Ignore' and was foolish enough to click on his post.  I compounded that error by responding to his trolling.  I won't make the same mistake again and haven't clicked on his subsequent posts.  

It is one thing to say that Oscar Peterson's playing exhibits a certain rhythmic sameness or is overly reliant on patterns.  It is another to go over the top and call it fake jazz and make comparisons to Trump. The latter is ridiculous and offensive for reasons I can't go into given the ban on political discussion.  Peterson deserves better.  Why clutter up a post with such mean-spiritedness other than to draw attention to oneself?  Such hyperbole says more about Allen than it does about Peterson.

Allen has demonstrated a clearly inflated opinion of his own artistic importance over the years, once listing himself as one of the top saxophonists, for example.  He very rarely has anything positive to say about musicians he hasn't known personally.  He also has consistently criticized other musicians whose work is more popular.  

The totality of his posts over the years gives the impression that he is a bitter musician who resents those who have achieved a certain level of success/popularity.  Maybe he isn't at all like that in real life and I am being unfair.  However, if I had a dollar for every negative post he's made about other musicians, I could personally fund one of his bloated vanity projects.

That's all I'll ever say about Allen.  Life is short, there are other topics I'd rather discuss and I prefer to be positive with my posts.  

As for Peterson, I tend to encounter him more often as a sideman or co-leader than as a sole leader in my current listening.  It has been several years since I've spent much time listening to his leader work; approaching it with fresh ears should be interesting.  

Off the top of my head, I've long meant to check out Soul Espanol and An Oscar Peterson Christmas, although I have a general aversion to Christmas music.  Until I just looked at my library's streaming service, I don't think I realized exactly how much he recorded for Verve.  I may start a thread about his Verve years to see what people think about such a huge body of work.

[Milestones]

The Christmas album is rather good, although there is a needless addition of "strings" on several cuts.  Still, this is tasteful and enjoyable music--one of the better Christmas albums from a jazz musician.

 

[Pim]

Fully agree with Justin V. I don’t see how being an artist or musician yourself makes it ok to be disrespectful about other musicians. Cause the remarks about anti jazz, that is what I see as insulting. It made me laugh that Allen was talking about ‘insulting’ remarks. 

Differing in taste is a whole other thing. I can fully understand people don’t like Peterson’s style. Hell I can fully understand people not liking my favorite jazz artists like Mal Waldron or Billy Harper. Isn’t that wat makes jazz the greatest music: all those styles, all those different streams and different tastes? I am personally not a big fan of mr. Allen Lowe’s music but I still do not disrespect him, let alone call it anti jazz or some other insulting word. 
 

And as I stated before: it always stuns me that people from the free/avant-garde scene make such remarks about colleagues. Always thought people in that scene were open minded but have been dissapointed more than once.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Pim

[Peter Friedman]

As so often happens for me. When there is an extended discussion about a musician here, it stimulates my interest in pulling some things off the shelf by that musician for current listening.

So have listened in the last day or two to the Benny Carter Meets Oscar Peterson CD, and a Peterson Trio CD with Sam Jones and Bobby Durham called Tristeza on the MPS label. Have greatly enjoyed both of them.

[Pim]

Yeah Tristeza is a great record. To me, his work on Pablo never did much to me. I prefer the Verve and MPS stuff.

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, Justin V said:

No one has said that Allen isn't entitled to his opinion or that he is any way not a knowledgeable person.  Allen has known and worked with some legendary musicians, but I don't see why that should get him a free pass.

I have him on 'Ignore' and was foolish enough to click on his post.  I compounded that error by responding to his trolling.  I won't make the same mistake again and haven't clicked on his subsequent posts.  

It is one thing to say that Oscar Peterson's playing exhibits a certain rhythmic sameness or is overly reliant on patterns.  It is another to go over the top and call it fake jazz and make comparisons to Trump. The latter is ridiculous and offensive for reasons I can't go into given the ban on political discussion.  Peterson deserves better.  Why clutter up a post with such mean-spiritedness other than to draw attention to oneself?  Such hyperbole says more about Allen than it does about Peterson.

Allen has demonstrated a clearly inflated opinion of his own artistic importance over the years, once listing himself as one of the top saxophonists, for example.  He very rarely has anything positive to say about musicians he hasn't known personally.  He also has consistently criticized other musicians whose work is more popular.  

The totality of his posts over the years gives the impression that he is a bitter musician who resents those who have achieved a certain level of success/popularity.  Maybe he isn't at all like that in real life and I am being unfair.  However, if I had a dollar for every negative post he's made about other musicians, I could personally fund one of his bloated vanity projects.

That's all I'll ever say about Allen.  Life is short, there are other topics I'd rather discuss and I prefer to be positive with my posts.  

As for Peterson, I tend to encounter him more often as a sideman or co-leader than as a sole leader in my current listening.  It has been several years since I've spent much time listening to his leader work; approaching it with fresh ears should be interesting.  

Off the top of my head, I've long meant to check out Soul Espanol and An Oscar Peterson Christmas, although I have a general aversion to Christmas music.  Until I just looked at my library's streaming service, I don't think I realized exactly how much he recorded for Verve.  I may start a thread about his Verve years to see what people think about such a huge body of work.

So let me get this straight Justin.

You have Allen on ignore. You don't like or respect him much.

You unblock his post and can't just go on about your visit, you have to not only respond but do it in th the most obnoxious way possible????

The whole Google translate thing was a total douchebag move. Calling it as I see it.

Musician or not, Allen is entitled to his opinion and ascribing it to resentment or jealousy is ridiculous..

You don't like Allen. You have him on ignore. I've had people on ignore too. When I am moved to read what someone wrote, I read it, generally say "whatever" and move on, comfortable in the knowledge that I made the right ignore decision.

Try it.

[sgcim]

3 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

let me add, btw, that I like strong and technically aggressive pianists. To me, for one example, Eddie Costa on the private recordings he did with Tal Farlow shows how artistic this can be. Or Phineas Newborn after about 1962 (though I like most of all his last recordings, because they seem to indicate a slight impairment that has caused him to really think about what he plays).  Newborn is an interesting example. He can be ridiculously glib (his recording of Celia, as I have said before, is a disaster, nervous and crawling with notes). There is something about technically accomplished players that can effect the connectivity of the notes they play; everything is often too seamless, there is no air in the musical spaces because there are no spaces.

I would definitely agree with Newborn and Costa being much more interesting and artistically satisfying than Peterson's tendency to overdo his powerful chops. Costa, like Dick Katz,  was also a much more imaginative comper than Peterson, who had a tendency to play over the soloist. 

It was interesting that Bill Evans' first album "Modern Jazz Conceptions" displayed a more percussive side to his playing, and that he and Costa were very close friends. Evans rarely returned to that type of playing. Newborn was able to demonstrate that virtuosity didn't have to include glibness, also. That creepy video of his last public performance was heartbreaking.

On 12/11/2019 at 9:16 AM, John Tapscott said:

Hmm...not saying you're wrong, but I thought Evans liked Peterson. Certainly Peterson liked Evans and even said that Evans had an influence on his later playing. Oscar often played "Waltz for Debbie."'

There's no doubt that Evans admired earlier Peterson (Pre-Pablo), but the incident I described took place when Peterson seemed to go off the rails. Perhaps Evans was responding to this deterioration in his playing. 

To completely dismiss Oscar is,IMHO, a mistake. Though I like some of the tunes he did with the Ellis trio on a case by case basis, in the 60s, when he started playing with Thigpen or Durham, he became a force of nature. His bit as a sideman on "The Eternal Triangle" was also phenomenal. 

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

... a Peterson Trio CD with Sam Jones and Bobby Durham called Tristeza on the MPS label.

I know that record. It's not bad, as far as that type of thing go.

However, having a trio with Sam Jones and Dobby Durham is like having an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. Good luck on that one!

[Milestones]

I like a fair amount of the Pablo records, especially Live! from 1986.  He often had Joe Pass in the band and those two could really rip it up--and often did. But this had the interesting "Bach Suite" (3 parts) with a mellow Andante--and the album closes with the beautiful ballad "If You Only Knew."

 

 

[AllenLowe]

35 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

If Allen is entitled to his opinion, why isn't Justin as well? 

1) I never said he wasn't entitled, I just objected to the specifics - which did not deal with the substance of my argument but with what he imagines are my motivations. When I don't like someone like Peterson, I don't say "he was a bad pianist because he was trying to be the fastest pianist in the business out of some phallic failing." I give reasons, technical and artistic, about why I do not like him.

2) just to address something Justin said which puzzled me; I am secure in my abilities as a musician/composer but never rated myself as a top saxophonist.

3) If you can find a post anywhere on this forum in which I express bitterness for my relative lack of commercial/professional success as a jazz musician, please show it to me. You won't find it; instead you will find some insinuations, as with Justin, about this without any evidence.

3) Saying that I am critical of musicians who are more successful than I is problematic, because if we are talking in commercial terms that includes 90 percent of the jazz world. But I have praised many, many musicians who are not personal friends. I just call 'em as I see 'em, as the saying goes.

4) A young saxophonist recently thanked me for "always telling the truth." What I believe he basically meant is that I say what I think is truthful and don't first make sure it is the popular opinion du jour.

5) I don't know if he will unblock me long enough to read this, but I just want to say to Justin,  with great humility and in all sincerity: Blow Me.

Edited December 12, 2019 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Captain Howdy said:

My post was addressed to Dan, who seemed to suggest that you, Allen, were allowed to express your opinion, but that Justin was wrong to express his (negative) opinion of you. 

Yeah, well, the thread is about opinions of Oscar Peterson's playing, not about about Justin's opinions of Allen Lowe's personality traits.

Context matters, anybody?

 

[Milestones]

Yes, time to put that other issue to bed.

I was trying to steer the thread into Oscar plays "sounds of the season."

[Chuck Nessa]

See my post #2 on this thread and understand I have 18 Peterson cds in my collection and untold sideman performances. I have been listening to him since the 1960s. Some obviously give pleasure or I would have stopped. I still stand my my original post in this thread and find Justin's post misinformed at best.

[AllenLowe]

to get back to O.P., for all his supposed virtues as a pianist, I believe Billie Holiday used to complain about his comping.

Also he was very critical of Monk, and called him a composer but not a pianist.

To me, Peterson took the shallowest aspects of Tatum and Nat Cole and made them into a 'style.'

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

48 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

However, it's more accurate to say the thread is about OP's "rap," which is a more nebulous subject.

Well, ok - what is a "rap" (as in "bad rap") if not a collection of opinions about his playing? Good rap, bad rap, whatever, there's nothing more to that than opinions. It's not like he's been inaccurately characterized as a junkie or a wife-heater, it not that kind of a bad rap.

But here's that kind of a good rap!

AFAIC, I got more time for this than I do for Oscar Peterson, especially today. . After all, everybody's rappin' - and only few can flow.

And no matter what you're talking about, that is truth.

[Dan Gould]

3 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

If Allen is entitled to his opinion, why isn't Justin as well? 

Yes he is entitled to his opinion. But I ask you, was that opinion or trolling douchebaggery of an epic nature?

Let's review:

He didn't attack or attempt to refute Allen's opinion. He made an obnoxious assertion about the true reasons for his opinion, with a gratuitously "clever" capper ("odd.").

Then he declared that he has Allen on Ignore, chose to view his post, posted that troll-comment, and has ignored all comments from Allen since. That's like punching someone in the nose and running away. Or cutting a fart and getting on your best poker face while you stroll out of the room.

Epic. Douchebaggery. Trolling. 

Your mileage may very well vary. And I don't intend to hold this against Justin. But as Tom said, can't we all get along? If Justin had simply adhered to his already-known aversion to Allen's posts nothing would have happened further. He could have done what I suggested in my prior post: reveal the message from the member you don't like to read if you feel you must, roll your eyes or whatever, and move on.