Does Oscar Peterson get a bad rap?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

[Big Beat Steve]

8 hours ago, Brad said:

Yes, she took photos of the session. 

Of course she did. An entire book was published about it. But that was NOT a trio session (a tentet session, in fact). That's the point I tried to make. So the pics look like stopgaps if the above clip is about the TRIO recordings.

[Brad]

It wasn’t clear from your original post what your point was. At any rate, there are other photos in the Mosaic book that look like it’s just from the trio session. If you have her book, perhaps it shows the trio sessions. 

[AllenLowe]

On 12/12/2019 at 11:04 AM, Justin V said:

No one has said that Allen isn't entitled to his opinion or that he is any way not a knowledgeable person.  Allen has known and worked with some legendary musicians, but I don't see why that should get him a free pass.

I have him on 'Ignore' and was foolish enough to click on his post.  I compounded that error by responding to his trolling.  I won't make the same mistake again and haven't clicked on his subsequent posts.  

It is one thing to say that Oscar Peterson's playing exhibits a certain rhythmic sameness or is overly reliant on patterns.  It is another to go over the top and call it fake jazz and make comparisons to Trump. The latter is ridiculous and offensive for reasons I can't go into given the ban on political discussion.  Peterson deserves better.  Why clutter up a post with such mean-spiritedness other than to draw attention to oneself?  Such hyperbole says more about Allen than it does about Peterson.

Allen has demonstrated a clearly inflated opinion of his own artistic importance over the years, once listing himself as one of the top saxophonists, for example.  He very rarely has anything positive to say about musicians he hasn't known personally.  He also has consistently criticized other musicians whose work is more popular.  

The totality of his posts over the years gives the impression that he is a bitter musician who resents those who have achieved a certain level of success/popularity.  Maybe he isn't at all like that in real life and I am being unfair.  However, if I had a dollar for every negative post he's made about other musicians, I could personally fund one of his bloated vanity projects.

That's all I'll ever say about Allen.  Life is short, there are other topics I'd rather discuss and I prefer to be positive with my posts.  

As for Peterson, I tend to encounter him more often as a sideman or co-leader than as a sole leader in my current listening.  It has been several years since I've spent much time listening to his leader work; approaching it with fresh ears should be interesting.  

Off the top of my head, I've long meant to check out Soul Espanol and An Oscar Peterson Christmas, although I have a general aversion to Christmas music.  Until I just looked at my library's streaming service, I don't think I realized exactly how much he recorded for Verve.  I may start a thread about his Verve years to see what people think about such a huge body of work.

after thinking about this for a few days I have come to the conclusion that Justin likes Peterson only because Peterson is so popular and Justin is afraid to buck the tide and go against the grain of popular opinion. Which is fine; he is the anti-troll; likes everything that earns a certain amount of money. I'm good with that.

Edited December 20, 2019 by AllenLowe

[Big Beat Steve]

On 14.12.2019 at 11:58 PM, Brad said:

It wasn’t clear from your original post what your point was. At any rate, there are other photos in the Mosaic book that look like it’s just from the trio session. If you have her book, perhaps it shows the trio sessions. 

I don't have the Mosaic box set but I do have the Esther Bubley book and the photographs in that video clip all seem to come from there as far as I was able to compare quickly. But the book (some 150 pages of photographs) is exclusively about the session feat. Bird, Ben Webster, Benny Carter (a.o.) of July 1952 most famously released on the "Jam Session #1" and "Jam Session #2" LPs.
This is why - in my first post - I found the pictures a bit "cramped" with all those "other" people hanging around in the pics (particularly the omnipresent J.C. Heard in the background who to the best of my knowledge never was part of an O.P TRIO )
I know it's all a minor point but if pictures of the trio sessions exist then why not use THEM for the clip?

Edited December 20, 2019 by Big Beat Steve

[John Tapscott]

35 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

after thinking about this for a few days I have come to the conclusion that Justin likes Peterson only because Peterson is so popular and Justin is afraid to buck the tide and go against the grain of popular opinion. Which is fine; he is the anti-troll; likes everything that earns a certain amount of money. I'm good with that.

Not wanting to get into this at all, but what I would say that on this Board the grain of popular opinion re Peterson ranges somewhere between truly awful and ho-hum (though there are some who really like him.) Maybe 3.5 out of 10 

[Milestones]

If you prefer stuff that makes money, you wouldn't be on a jazz forum.

[Big Beat Steve]

47 minutes ago, John Tapscott said:

Not wanting to get into this at all, but what I would say that on this Board the grain of popular opinion re Peterson ranges somewhere between truly awful and ho-hum (though there are some who really like him.) Maybe 3.5 out of 10 

Which actually would have been a good enough reason to go on record as saying you DO like OP a lot - just to swim against the tide HERE. And then go on record too that there is no point drooling about pianists who were totally out of it on too many occasions and would have needed (offstage) help to get their act together (again) and never ought to have been recorded in those painful situations (unless you are in voyeurist mood).

Edited December 20, 2019 by Big Beat Steve

[Peter Friedman]

I thought Allen was against trying to attribute psychological motivations for someones musical preferences - pro or con?

John Tapscott's attempt to come up with a numerical rating for the playing of Oscar Peterson is probably not too far off the mark. Nonetheless, put me in the camp of those who like Peterson's playing quite a lot.

 

[Milestones]

Now listening to Stratford Shakespeare Festival.

 

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, John Tapscott said:

Not wanting to get into this at all, but what I would say that on this Board the grain of popular opinion re Peterson ranges somewhere between truly awful and ho-hum (though there are some who really like him.) Maybe 3.5 out of 10 

I think if you include people who like him sometimes in some amount it goes up to a solid 6.5 - 7 range. The total dislike is actually more rare than the total embracing. it seems to me. Stronger in expression, perhaps, but still, less rare in frequency.

[Milestones]

Man, what hackneyed and over-driven playing on the duet album with Ella (1975)....not! 

[AllenLowe]

I was actually flipping the script, so to speak. Point being is that it is no more outrageous to suggest that Justin likes whatever is popular than it is to suggest that I dislike whatever is popular.

Edited December 20, 2019 by AllenLowe

[catesta]

I like OP just fine, sideman, trio or whatever. Like with many, there is some bad, not so good, good and great. For me, what I hear, is more good to great than not. 

 

 

[EKE BBB]

On 20/12/2019 at 10:02 PM, catesta said:

I like OP just fine, sideman, trio or whatever. Like with many, there is some bad, not so good, good and great. For me, what I hear, is more good to great than not. 

 

 

Count me in!

[Brad]

If we are using a numerical range, I’d probably place him between 5 and 6 although Jim’s 6.5 isn’t probably far off either. I like him in short bursts from time to time. 

[Teasing the Korean]

 

Here is TTK's humble experience with Oscar Peterson:

I was first exposed to jazz as a kid via my Dad.  He had in his collection such amazing albums as Mundell Lowe's TV Action Jazz! and the Double Six of Paris U.S. debut on Capitol, but he did not have any Oscar Peterson.

When I hit junior high, I started to really explore jazz.  Dave Brubeck's Time Out was a gateway of sorts.  I had somehow formed this idea - either through research, conversation, or my own observations - that Oscar Peterson was kind of a Liberace or Peter Nero of jazz - a recognizable figure that may be found in the record collections of people who had a few jazz albums, but not one who was rated very highly among the jazz crowd.

In high school, I bought one Oscar Peterson album - a double LP compilation of his Verve tracks.  The only track that really stood out was his version of "On Green Dolphin Street," mostly because of Milt Jackson's vibes.

When I was in my late 20s, I was getting serious about my own piano playing and buying almost everyone's solo jazz piano album, just to hear how they approached playing solo.  I picked up Oscar's My Favorite Instrument on MPS.  While I was taken by Oscar's touch and technical command, I did not find this album as compelling as other solo piano albums by Roland Hanna, Hank Jones, or Randy Weston.

In the 1990s, during the Great Vinyl Purge, I was dragging home dollar albums by the armload.  I picked up basically any Oscar Peterson album on Verve, Norgran, or Clef that I stumbled upon.  I would generally play these once and file them.  If I revisited them, I might pull one out if we were having guests over for cocktails.  

I eventually ended up with about 20 Oscar Peterson albums.  The only two I routinely revisit are his woefully mistitled Soul Espagnole on Limelight, a strange mashup of Brazilian tunes with Afro-Cuban percussion; and Motions and Emotions on MPS, which I adore not for the piano, but rather for that decadent Euro 1970s fondue sound, courtesy of Claus Ogerman.  I also have Oscar's soundtrack album to the 1978 thriller The Silent Partner, starring Elliott Gould, Christopher Plummer, and Susannah York.  I should revisit this one.  

While I would not be too eager to unload any of these albums, I also don't feel compelled to spin them very often.  

As for Oscar's influence on my own modest piano playing, I did cop his solo coda to "East of the Sun" by Billie Holiday, which I use in my arrangement of "All the Way." 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Teasing the Korean

[jazzcorner]

Have about 60 Items with Oscar LP's / CD's and some boxes.

He is one of my favorite jazz artists I can listen to  at any time.

Beginning with his very early recordings on RCA, the rich  selections on Verve under his name as well as doing "the house rhythm section" for other Norman Granz' artists and some on the Pablo label, Justintime label + some live stuff from the swiss  radio label and the french RTE/Trema and reissues on VSP/VSPS.   The high rated "London House"  recordings  do not belong to my favorites. Heavens sake the tastes are different.

Outstanding for me are the Trio recordings without drummer  that is with Ray Brown, Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis.  The "song books" are nice but not a deep performance. but the rest with the Trio is  first class [for me]. The MPS material is superbe because of the recording technique and I like also the " decadent Euro 19710 fondue sound" if I need some quieter music.

That is all I can comment from my side on this thread.

Thanks

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by jazzcorner
more text

[Teasing the Korean]

8 minutes ago, jazzcorner said:

...and I like also the " decadent Euro 19710 fondue sound" if I need some quieter music.

Oh, but some of those records are on the noisy side!  

 

[jazzcorner]

 Maybee a little "offtopic" but Nelson Riddle was a great arranger and had some nice albums on Capitol. "C'mon get happy" is the swingiest.

Same  genre as Jackie Gleason for the "lighter side" but he is also available with swinging big band sounds.

BTW "Changing Colors" is here in the stock. The music is like the title "changing colors"

If I need "noise" I am to 50 % a big band collector and have enought stuff for that  direction too.

;-]]

 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

8 minutes ago, jazzcorner said:

 Maybee a little "offtopic" but Nelson Riddle was a great arranger and had some nice albums on Capitol. "C'mon get happy" is the swingiest.

Same  genre as Jackie Gleason for the "lighter side" but he is also available with swinging big band sounds.

BTW "Changing Colors" is here in the stock. The music is like the title "changing colors"

If I need "noise" I am to 50 % a big band collector and have enought stuff for that  direction too.

;-]]

Nelson was good, but nowhere near as great as Les Baxter.  Les never did an MPS album, but his 1970 album with 101 Strings gives a taste of what one might have sounded like.  Dig the passage at around 1:22 where Les includes a "rock" version of the riff from his classic "Simba" from Tamboo! (1955):

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

I'll see your Les Baxter 101 Strings and call it with the Nelson Riddle Same:

The first time I heard that record, it kinda fucked me up, because, you know, 101 Strings and shit. And then...Nelson Riddle had a melancholy streak that was more like a canyon...reading his biography, it appears that at root he was a very sad man.

Then again, with a middle name like Smock...

[Teasing the Korean]

34 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I'll see your Les Baxter 101 Strings and call it with the Nelson Riddle Same:

I have that Nelson101 Strings.  It is excellent, save for the lame, bombastic Paul Simon cover.

But you should hear that Les Baxter Que Mango album all the way through.  It is on the InterTubes.

But we are getting off topic.  What did you think about my Oscar Peterson experience?  

[JSngry]

You bought more of his records than I did.

[Teasing the Korean]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

You bought more of his records than I did.

Yeah, but at those prices, who's complaining?