Playing Favorites: Reflections on Jazz in the 1970s

[JSngry]

I'm serious. That bass riff is ready to go, and once whole group gets in there, it's no longer optional. That thing is for MOVING!

Just don't be trying to do no Hustle or like that, not THAT kind of dancing.

[HutchFan]

Another log to toss on the fire of our ongoing discussion:

Ethan Iverson has been digging into jazz in the 70s for a long while, exploring nooks and crannies that are often overlooked.  Lots of territory similar to what I'm covering as part of my blog project.  I think his writing is always interesting -- even when I disagree with his assessments (which isn't often).

Here's an entry on his blog, Do the Math, about 52 LPs pulled from his collection -- "mainstream jazz LPs from the ’70s and ’80s, essentially from shortly after the death of John Coltrane to just before the rise of Wynton Marsalis, specifically music that was not made by the biggest names nor supported by any sort of significant critical discourse. ... These working class straight-ahead players were usually (but not always) African-American and NYC-based."

Well worth a read, I think.

What say you?

 

 

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

I'm serious. That bass riff is ready to go, and once whole group gets in there, it's no longer optional. That thing is for MOVING!

Just don't be trying to do no Hustle or like that, not THAT kind of dancing.

Alright.  I got to re-listen.   

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by HutchFan

[danasgoodstuff]

4 hours ago, HutchFan said:

LOL  O.K.!

 

Oh.  That's a bummer.  Sorry to hear that.

The two live records that Freeman made with Arthur Blythe at Ronnie Scott's are pretty good.  Have you heard those?

 

I'll have to see if I can find those on YouTube or elsewhere for a listen.

[felser]

20 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

IMHO Arthur Blythe's Lennox Ave. Breakdown is a masterpiece.  The one time I saw him was with Chico Freeman, too much schtick. 

+1 on both observations.

[sidewinder]

On 25/11/2020 at 5:37 PM, HutchFan said:

Another log to toss on the fire of our ongoing discussion:

Ethan Iverson has been digging into jazz in the 70s for a long while, exploring nooks and crannies that are often overlooked.  Lots of territory similar to what I'm covering as part of my blog project.  I think his writing is always interesting -- even when I disagree with his assessments (which isn't often).

Here's an entry on his blog, Do the Math, about 52 LPs pulled from his collection -- "mainstream jazz LPs from the ’70s and ’80s, essentially from shortly after the death of John Coltrane to just before the rise of Wynton Marsalis, specifically music that was not made by the biggest names nor supported by any sort of significant critical discourse. ... These working class straight-ahead players were usually (but not always) African-American and NYC-based."

Well worth a read, I think.

What say you?

That’s quite an interesting list.

My first reaction is that few of these would likely have been available here at the time, other than as expensive US imports at a couple of specialist shops nationwide. Obscurities to this day !

A few of the comments really stand out. The sad passing of several artists (William Henderson included - wasn’t aware of that, RIP) as he was writing the notes. The over-loud bass on many of the sessions, which ruined more than a few. And Houston Person’s predilection for Playboyesque covers, which over the years has meant that I might have mentally discounted what were likely some very good records !

Edited November 27, 2020 by sidewinder

[Dan Gould]

On 11/25/2020 at 0:37 PM, HutchFan said:

Another log to toss on the fire of our ongoing discussion:

Ethan Iverson has been digging into jazz in the 70s for a long while, exploring nooks and crannies that are often overlooked.  Lots of territory similar to what I'm covering as part of my blog project.  I think his writing is always interesting -- even when I disagree with his assessments (which isn't often).

Here's an entry on his blog, Do the Math, about 52 LPs pulled from his collection -- "mainstream jazz LPs from the ’70s and ’80s, essentially from shortly after the death of John Coltrane to just before the rise of Wynton Marsalis, specifically music that was not made by the biggest names nor supported by any sort of significant critical discourse. ... These working class straight-ahead players were usually (but not always) African-American and NYC-based."

Well worth a read, I think.

What say you?

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting, this fit the bill for online reading the morning after Thanksgiving when there's hardly any news to look at ...

I find Iverson to be much better as an interviewer than in this sort of thing ... It's interesting that he (a pianist) disses Walter Bishop Jr and Duke Jordan as soloists, not to mention Joe Albany's sense of time (I just received a copy of Dickey Myers LP (Allen Lowe production) from the same year, with Albany, and the old guy absolutely sparkles. I admit I don't know the record Iverson was listening to, but he opines that Albany wasn't gigging much, and I've found quite a few jazz show listings in 1979 for Joe Albany's New Yorkers.)

There are other comments but I didn't keep a running list and it's time to get ready for work so I'll just stick with my main observation for now. Oh, except that, for a lengthy post he must have worked a long time on, he could have tried his hand at editing/proofing.

[JSngry]

Iverson's comment about Ira Sullivan is...all kinds of

[felser]

Much love for the Land and for the Griffin Tokyo set, and nice to see some exposure for the Visitors album.

[Ethan Iverson]

Thanks for linking to my post! It's just a diary, I literally made quick notes on things I was boxing up while moving. (Time will tell if I ever get to unbox them again.) There's a related "teaching" DTM concerning 70s jazz that I took more time on: 

https://ethaniverson.com/2020/05/07/riffs-third-set/

[JSngry]

Do you really listen to Ira Sullivan in terms of "white Chicagoan Sullivan more than hold(ing) his own next to the black New Yorkers"?

That's a really funny thing to do, imo. Ira Sullivan long ago transcended that kind of demographic trivia.

Not everybody does, but he did.

[Dan Gould]

21 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Do you really listen to Ira Sullivan in terms of "white Chicagoan Sullivan more than hold(ing) his own next to the black New Yorkers"?

That's a really funny thing to do, imo. Ira Sullivan long ago transcended that kind of demographic trivia.

Not everybody does, but he did.

Yeah that was the other thing that stood out to me ... why even go with "white" let alone for someone like Ira?

[Ethan Iverson]

sorry I annoy you guys! But I'm willing to die on the hill that *nobody* truly transcends race, it is *always* a factor -- although, of course, one of the great things about jazz is how it brings disparate people together.

Anyway for those that dig DTM, thanks for reading. I'll get out of here now...(won't keep responding to thread)

[HutchFan]

48 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Do you really listen to Ira Sullivan in terms of "white Chicagoan Sullivan more than hold(ing) his own next to the black New Yorkers"?

That's a really funny thing to do, imo. Ira Sullivan long ago transcended that kind of demographic trivia.

Not everybody does, but he did.

Jim,

Iverson can speak for himself, of course.  But isn't this just a statement about Sullivan's bona fides relative to other jazzmen on the date?  Sullivan is an under-the-radar musician -- especially compared to Philly Joe and others.  Speaking for myself, I was completely unfamiliar with Ira Sullivan until I began my blog project. 

I'm just sayin'. 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

12 minutes ago, Ethan Iverson said:

But I'm willing to die on the hill that *nobody* truly transcends race, it is *always* a factor -- although, of course, one of the great things about jazz is how it brings disparate people together.

I dunno, that seems to be a rearward looking/retrogressive position...does Beethoven ever truly transcend being White? If not, then ultimately, why bother?

Or more to the point - if we can't get past (not "over" but past) Beethoven being white and Louis Armstrong being Black, then where are we headed with those thoughts?

Sure, at no point does it ever cease to be a reality. But surely there is a point where the music - as player and as listener - supersedes mere demographics and sociological specifics.

Not saying it doesn't "matter", but rather am saying that the hows and whys of it mattering evolve as individuals evolve.

Coming together into one thing and becoming the same thing are not the same!

[HutchFan]

4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

I find Iverson to be much better as an interviewer than in this sort of thing ... It's interesting that he (a pianist) disses Walter Bishop Jr and Duke Jordan as soloists, not to mention Joe Albany's sense of time (I just received a copy of Dickey Myers LP (Allen Lowe production) from the same year, with Albany, and the old guy absolutely sparkles. I admit I don't know the record Iverson was listening to, but he opines that Albany wasn't gigging much, and I've found quite a few jazz show listings in 1979 for Joe Albany's New Yorkers.)

There are other comments but I didn't keep a running list and it's time to get ready for work so I'll just stick with my main observation for now. Oh, except that, for a lengthy post he must have worked a long time on, he could have tried his hand at editing/proofing.

Dan,

I gotta say that I strongly disagree.  I, for one, love the fact that Iverson is willing to offer his opinions -- because, after all, that's all anyone has to offer. 

Consider:  Iverson doesn't groove to Martial Solal -- and Solal is one of my very favorite musicians -- but why in the world should that prevent me from enjoying other things that Iverson has written with which I COMPLETELY agree?  For example, see his stuff about Cedar Walton.

Seems like we're picking nits, trying to find points of contention.  There's no one in the world whose idea of jazz is just like mine -- or yours -- or his.  Our conceptions of what constitutes "good" or "interesting" jazz are like Venn diagrams.  Some have more overlap than others, but NONE are the same. 

So why get wrapped around the axle when there are differences in points of view when the differences are absolutely inevitable and even essential?

I guess I feel like the dialogue itself is more important than the particulars of the dialogue!

Or at least that's how I like to think about it.

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

19 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Jim,

Iverson can speak for himself, of course.  But isn't this just a statement about Sullivan's bona fides relative to other jazzmen on the date?  Sullivan is an under-the-radar musician -- especially compared to Philly Joe and others.  Speaking for myself, I was completely unfamiliar with Ira Sullivan until I began my blog project. 

I'm just sayin'. 

 

So you became aware of Ira Sullivan, learned that he was a ""White Chicagoan", and then did what with that information going forth?

There's a lot that is relevant to that detail, but is it anything that pertains to Sullivan on a Galaxy record? He was on several in those days and he was uniformly excellent (as he tended to be, period). But check him out on Red Alert and tell me if you think about as a "White Chicagoan". I'd say that if you do, I'd have to say that congratulations for getting out of elementary school and junior high you can read a map and observe traffic signs, but please, keep going, there's a lot more to get to and through.

And to everybody - check out the record that Ira Sullivan and Nicky Hill made together. Your loss until you do!

 

 

[HutchFan]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

So you became aware of Ira Sullivan, learned that he was a ""White Chicagoan", and then did what with that information going forth?

There's a lot that is relevant to that detail, but is it anything that pertains to Sullivan on a Galaxy record? He was on several in those days and he was uniformly excellent (as he tended to be, period). But check him out on Red Alert and tell me if you think about as a "White Chicagoan". I'd say that if you do, I'd have to say that congratulations for getting out of elementary school and junior high you can read a map and observe traffic signs, but please, keep going, there's a lot more to get to and through.

O.K., O.K., I get it, Jim!   

I think we'd both agree that if we were creating a biographical sketch of Ira Sullivan, the fact that he was white and from Chicago would be facts worth mentioning.  But -- based on the parallel construction that Iverson used -- you're saying that these facts are not THAT important.  The race aspect is over-emphasized from your point of view. ... And I probably wouldn't have written that way either.

But I don't need to agree with everything Iverson says.  Or everything you say.  Right!?!?

Aren't we losing the forest for the trees?

 

[JSngry]

Ok -

• One Black Texan (by then, anyway)
• Two Black Californians
• Two Black New Yorkers
• One White Chicagoan (who by then had been a long-time Floridian, probably for about as long as Red had been a Texan)

Any record review that would lead with this and then not go any further with the relevancy of it is, uh...a bad review, and one that would have me wondering wtf? the point was as well as how with an attitude like that I would care about what the reviewer thought about the record.

To hear the Black Californian and the White Chicagoan tenorists on the same record is a delight for any number of reasons. To hear the Black New Yorkers, maybe not so much. And having heard the Black Texan in person in his Home Turf many times during the time of this recording, I am unqualified to comment other than to say that I marvel.

[HutchFan]

17 minutes ago, JSngry said:

And to everybody - check out the record that Ira Sullivan and Nicky Hill made together. Your loss until you do!

O.K.  I've not heard that one.  I'll check it out.

 

[soulpope]

1 minute ago, HutchFan said:

O.K., O.K., I get it, Jim!   

I think we'd both agree that if we were creating a biographical sketch of Ira Sullivan, the fact that he was white and from Chicago would be facts worth mentioning.  But -- based on the parallel construction that Iverson used -- you're saying that these facts are not THAT important.  The race aspect is over-emphasized from your point of view. ... And I probably wouldn't have written that way either.

But I don't need to agree with everything Iverson says.  Or everything you say.  Right!?!?

Aren't we losing the forest for the trees?

Seemingly ....

[medjuck]

Way to welcome someone to the board. 

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, HutchFan said:

O.K., O.K., I get it, Jim!   

I think we'd both agree that if we were creating a biographical sketch of Ira Sullivan, the fact that he was white and from Chicago would be facts worth mentioning.  But -- based on the parallel construction that Iverson used -- you're saying that these facts are not THAT important.  The race aspect is over-emphasized from your point of view. ... And I probably wouldn't have written that way either.

But I don't need to agree with everything Iverson says.  Or everything you say.  Right!?!?

Aren't we losing the forest for the trees?

 

This is not Brazil!

Those facts are certainly important, but not for every relevance, nor in every context. I mean, does anybody - HAS anybody - ever described Pepper Adams as a "White Detroiter" or a "White New Yorker". Of course not! Why? Probably because once the musician is "in", they don't matter to the music or to the musicians.

Now, as to how they got in, and why so few do, THAT"S a story, a real story that is too often glossed over if told at all. But it's a different story. Totally different story. And not knowing the difference is....unevolved.

Leonard Feather lives, damn his soul all to hell.

 

[HutchFan]

I enjoy reading what Iverson writes, even if I don't agree with everything he writes.

If you do too, that's fine.  If you do not, that's fine too.

With that, I'm letting this matter go.

 

[JSngry]

I enjoy most of what he writes as well, which is why that one thing was somewhat...jarring. It seemed like a rookie move, and he is certainly no rookie.

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Ok -

•  
• Two Black Californians
• Two Black New Yorkers
•  

 

Nat Adderley was a Floridian to my mind.