Charles Lloyd Quartet - Swiss Radio Days Jazz 46

[Robert Middleton]

I have the three albums Lloyd released in 1967 - Journey Within, Love In and In the Soviet Union. I liked all of these, so hoping the Montreux set is comparable. 

Clearly, Lloyd is coming to the end of his career/life, but I love everything he does. His tone is not as strong as before, but something truly radiant pours out of him. I've only seen him live once at the Monterey Jazz Festival when he was playing with his Sangam trio which was incredible. (That album is one of my favorites of all time.)

[Guy Berger]

I picked up this set and listened to the 1st disc.

IMHO this won’t change any minds, it’s not the best Lloyd but also quite enjoyable if you like his other 1967 recordings.

[Guy Berger]

On 10/9/2019 at 11:29 AM, GA Russell said:

Jim, I'm very surprised to see you say that.  I highly respect bandleaders who hire people who are better than they are.  For example, Herbie Mann in the late '60s.  Spencer Davis in the mid-'60s.  How about Miles with his first great quintet, his second great quintet and his lost quintet?  Even Dave Clark!

Miles Davis is not really comparable here. I don’t think anybody would contest he was (1) a significant contributor as an instrumentalist (2) the major creative force shaping the music of his bands.  He wasn’t just the employer, he was the *architect*.  Replace him with any of his peers during that period and his bands would have sounded different and, on average, worse.

Lloyd was never (2), but at his best he was definitely (1). Jim’s point is that as the quartet w/Jarrett and DeJohnette progressed, he wasn’t really 1 anymore either.  Really obvious in 1968, somewhat apparent in 1967.

The example of Mann is interesting here because I think he was a weaker and less interesting instrumentalist than Lloyd, but maybe had more of a creative, shaping vision.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Guy Berger

[Larry Kart]

Never had any use for Lloyd.

[Dub Modal]

On 10/30/2022 at 0:23 PM, Larry Kart said:

Never had any use for Lloyd.

Really? Wow, that's kind of unexpected. While I don't really dig his Blue Note output, his ECM albums are some of the strongest not just in his catalog but across that entire label's. 

[mjazzg]

12 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Really? Wow, that's kind of unexpected. While I don't really dig his Blue Note output, his ECM albums are some of the strongest not just in his catalog but across that entire label's. 

I agree absolutely about the ECM releases, they are uniformly strong, but then some folks don't like or readily dismiss that label.

Not saying that's what leads to Larry Kart's take on Lloyd (I'm also surprised by such a blanket dismissal) but I know it's seriously coloured other people's opinions of artists on the label.

[JSngry]

Lloyd had a lot of detractors during his Atlantic days. Claims of "Coltrane Lite" and such were definitely in the air. And the aforementioned decline in his playing ca. 1965 certainly didn't help.

[Dub Modal]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Lloyd had a lot of detractors during his Atlantic days. Claims of "Coltrane Lite" and such were definitely in the air. And the aforementioned decline in his playing ca. 1965 certainly didn't help.

I can see that. My starting point for him were the ECMs and for some reason - maybe the modernity of that setting - I had/have no real interest in hearing what he did in decades past. It's interesting to me how his somewhat concurrent output on different labels is so starkly different. That's why a blanket dismissal of his work seems strange. 

15 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

I agree absolutely about the ECM releases, they are uniformly strong, but then some folks don't like or readily dismiss that label.

Not saying that's what leads to Larry Kart's take on Lloyd (I'm also surprised by such a blanket dismissal) but I know it's seriously coloured other people's opinions of artists on the label.

Indeed. To me, there's some real magic on his ECM records. 

[JSngry]

I had always like Lloyd well enough, but he was definitely not a priority for me. But then I ran into a crowd for whom Lloyd was magic. Serious players, not "hippie" fans. The biggest hook for them was his tone, and the only Atlantics that were kind of sloughed of were the two Fillmore records. And sometimes his flute playing is just a little too...intentionally "precious" for my taste. I've never heard anybody passionately advocate for his flute work, even today.

So I went back, re-listened, and yeah, ok, I got it, the deal with the tone.. And those ECM records showed a real development and deepening of what was already a very distinctive sound across the entire range f the instrument. So...I get the earlier dissing, but don't agree with it. And the ECMs were really, REALLY good. No matter what had (or hadn't been) going on up until that point, those records showed a full blossoming, imo.

12 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

I can see that. My starting point for him were the ECMs and for some reason - maybe the modernity of that setting - I had/have no real interest in hearing what he did in decades past.

The pre-Atlantic records on Columbia (and the live performances that were released a while back) hold up really well, imo. Definitely.

On Atlantic, only Dream Weaver stands alone imo, no context needed. Forest Flower wasthe big hit, but...it's not necessarily a great record, especially as an LP, where you got one side that's now "legendary" and anther one that...does anybody ever play THAT side?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I only bought a couple of Lloyd's ECM CDs and that was because he had Billy Higgins playing drums. I remember liking "The Water Is Wide" quite a bit back when I first heard it but have not played it in a while.

So far, I am not digging his latest releases from Blue Note (A Trio of Trios). I have listened to the first two trio records and they are pretty boring. I should get in the 3rd and final trio LP soon. I don't expect much.

[Dub Modal]

I found those BN albums boring as well, which I didn't expect. 

46 minutes ago, bresna said:

I only bought a couple of Lloyd's ECM CDs and that was because he had Billy Higgins playing drums. I remember liking "The Water Is Wide" quite a bit back when I first heard it but have not played it in a while.

So far, I am not digging his latest releases from Blue Note (A Trio of Trios). I have listened to the first two trio records and they are pretty boring. I should get in the 3rd and final trio LP soon. I don't expect much.

I'll have to check those out. I've ignored almost all of his back catalog outside of that Resonance Slugs reissue. 

[JSngry]

20 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

I'll have to check those out. I've ignored almost all of his back catalog outside of that Resonance Slugs reissue. 

The Chico Hamilton records with the Lloyd/Gabor Szabo "front line" couple with Lloyd's first Columbia records very nicely, imo.

[mjazzg]

The recent BNs are not setting my world alight  either (although I've not gone deep into them) and I do feel there's been a general dip since he left ECM. I saw him just pre-Covid in Ronnie's and he was great live. During Covid I watched a couple of very good live streams and a great film put together for  Pierre Boulez Saal and the berlin Jazz festival

11 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The Chico Hamilton records with the Lloyd/Gabor Szabo "front line" couple with Lloyd's first Columbia records very nicely, imo.

Absolutely this. These albums deserve repeated attention. I also agree about the Atlantics, beyond 'Dream Weaver' it all gets a bit much of a muchness

[Larry Kart]

Lloyd. "Coltrane lite" was my take back then and the few examples of ECM Lloyd I've heard don't do anything for me. BTW, this is not at all my take on every Trane influenced player, of which many abound, and some of those many are genuine/worthwhile IMO. I just sensed something spacey-exploitive about Lloyd. Perhaps it's the spaciness -- which is certainly part of his appeal, no? -- that I find hollow/dubious. But Lloyd can live without me and vice versa.

[mjazzg]

Yes, I'd say that "spaciness" is part of the appeal of some of his music to me, but by no means all.  Perhaps one man's spaciness is another's soulfulness. I enjoy his jauntiness too.  It'd be a dull world if we all heard the same thing.

[JSngry]

Spaciness? Not to me. Willful naivete, Love Child Hippiness, yes. Sometimes sickeningly so. 

But that was a long time ago. I think he shed that somewhere in the 80s. He does not have an unlimited supply of ideas, but with that tone, you don't really have to. He's nurtured that tone and it's only gotten warmer, wispier, and more vehicular. 

And - he is consistently one of the best-dressed people on the planet 

[Larry Kart]

Willful naivete, Love Child Hippiness would have been turn offs enough for me.

[Dub Modal]

Streaming Discovery! now which is a Columbia album and his debut. I definitely hear the Trane influence. Wow. I definitely much prefer his later stuff where he has his own voice. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

Willful naivete, Love Child Hippiness would have been turn offs enough for me.

and you know, you being an older gentleman and all, I would allow you that, but not feel it to any deep extent. Hell, that's what I cut my teeth on...

But then I saw this, and, uh...I get it a LOT more now.

But that was a LOOOONG time ago. And except for Jarrett, they have all grown up. And Jack was ALREADY grown up.

[felser]

Love Child Hippiness holds period charm for me.  I like his Columbia work (leader and Hamilton) best, but do like the Atlantic's fine.  And the decades later ECM (and some of the Blue Note) are outstanding.

[AllenLowe]

On 10/30/2022 at 0:23 PM, Larry Kart said:

Never had any use for Lloyd.

I was with you on this, Larry, until I heard a live CD of Lloyd in which he blew the roof off. This was late '60s, I think, and sadly I don't remember what it was.

[felser]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

I was with you on this, Larry, until I heard a live CD of Lloyd in which he blew the roof off. This was late '60s, I think, and sadly I don't remember what it was.

'In The Soviet Union' with a great 18 minute "Sweet Georgia Bright"?  

Edited November 2, 2022 by felser

[mjazzg]

5 hours ago, felser said:

'In The Soviet Union' with a great 18 minute "Sweet Georgia Bright"?  

Having read this, I'm going to listen to that album again today. It's been a while 

[felser]

2 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Having read this, I'm going to listen to that album again today. It's been a while 

That album was my introduction to Lloyd ca. 1972/1973 courtesy of the Norristown/Montgomery County Public Library.  They also had the amazing 'El Pampero' by Gato Barbieri - those two albums left a lasting impression on me.  Can't remember what other jazz albums I borrowed from there, but they had several.

[JSngry]

11 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I was with you on this, Larry, until I heard a live CD of Lloyd in which he blew the roof off. This was late '60s, I think, and sadly I don't remember what it was.

You might have heard the Resonance disc of Lloyd live in NYC. That was a rather frisky set.

Also, the live date with Cannonball. The faster company kept him honest, so to speak.