FInal Call for Pre-orders: Turn Me Loose White Man:

[Brad]

21 minutes ago, medjuck said:

I checked it out but there didn't seem to be that much jazz content.  Is there a sub-forum I missed?   And did people leave or were they driven away? 

The content is not as good as it is here as there are only a few threads but the Listening to Jazz and Conversation, and the Jazz Beat are good threads. I think some people were driven away such as Paul Secor. I’ve also had a couple tell me that they had it. This Forum used to have a lot more participating members than it does now. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Captain Howdy said:

Maybe it's so hard for White Man to talk about racism because apparently Black Man considers Kenny Loggins’s “This Is It” an example of racism.

Just let that kind of bullshit play out. The more it gets engaged with, the further away from the core issue the discussion gets. It's distraction into meaninglessness  And who does that benefit?

Nobody except...

.

I'm already regretting even thinking this, much less saying it, but if White People are curious how to navigate this whole climate of transition, they could do far worse things than keeping an eye on Taylor Swift (again, NOT the music, music is not the point of any of this). I'm not really sure, but it seems like she gets it. She gets The Man and all The Man's bullshit and she is not afraid.

AND - when she gets called out for the Cultural Appropriation things (as she has, one time particularly memorably) she did NOT get Angsty White Peopley, she just did not engage in a fight, she recognized, appreciated, and then got back to making more money so she could execute her next acts of fuquitousness against

I don't know if she personally gives a damn or not, but she gets it. And if she makes it to the finish line in one piece, hey, good for her. It's not JUST race that is freaking people into stupidity these days, it's a lot of things, age, gender, and just a general, uh...critical mass of history.

 

[mjzee]

Pretty soon, the Organissimo forums will consist of five woke guys, having successfully driven out everyone else deemed insufficiently woke.  Congratulations in advance.

[JSngry]

8 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Hell, I'll go  if it makes anyone change their mind about leaving. Y'all belong here more than I do. I started this trouble and I don't have anything of substance to contribute anyway.

I dunno man, you can take a punch pretty damn good. and you seem to be genuinely curious about music. Makes for good conversation, imo. Not always "pretty", but with an avitar like that, hey, nobody can say they weren't warned!

As for the whole "woke" nonsense...wake me when that's over. I'm old and I take all my rest (and I'll take anybody else's that they're not using).

[JSngry]

Hello!

[Hot Ptah]

7 hours ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

Wow, I'm naive.  I'm not Murcan (wtf is Trudeau Tea?) , so therefore stupidly ignorant.  Thank you for explaining that everything I've ever learned and appreciated about jazz for the last 60+ years is wrong, wrong wrong, and that everything needs to be viewed through your/Organissimo's lens.  I bow down to your superior knowledge and world-understanding.

I met and talked with Dizzy.  Did you?  I met and recorded/interviewed with Duke, Basie, Braxton, Lloyd, Cannonball, Chet, Bill Evans, Carmen McRae Russell Procope, Ella, Paul Desmond, Jay; McShann, Duke Pearson, Cedar Walton, Zoot Sims, Buddy Tate, Don Pullen, Ed Bickert, Flip Phillips, Kenny Barron,Martial Solal, Earl Hines,James Moody, Kenny Wheeler, Moncef Genoud, Geoff Keezer, Cab Calloway, Rob McConnell, Don Menza, Jimmie Rowles and several dozens more, yet have never bothered to try to understand about jazz.  I'm naive.

I'm also out of here.  I just can't take the JSangrey-only worldview any more.  You're right, everyone else is stupid/naive/wrong. Bye.

Or you could ignore what Jim Sangrey says and enjoy this site for what you want to get out of it. 

[mikeweil]

As long as you're discussing it, it's still an issue. It's as simple as that.

Words fail me to describe my feelings when I read through these pages which were thought to be a support to Allen's great work. Instead - fussing about words. 

The simplest rule for any forum is: If you don't like something, stay away and keep your mouth shut. Do positive, support the stuff you like imstead of fighting stuff you dislike. In the end, it only turns energy in the wrong direction. Old wisdom.

[Big Beat Steve]

There comes a point in any discussion when it just becomes meaningless fighting the same fights over and over again. Maybe that's what Mike meant. Some reach ths point earlier, some later (much later).

What I don't get, however, is why everybody is so exceedingly touchy about this particular topic. Is this a US thing? Discussions where there are so many (imaginary) stumbling stones that everyone needs to go out of his way to avoid, lest he be blamed for being non.P.C. and then exposed to some sort of cultural witch hunt for having the "wrong" opinion? I'd venture a guess everyone around here pays the creators in music their dues in every imaginable way and won't need to concern themselves with accusations of "cultural appropriation" in any Jim Crow (or racist or other) manner (to sum up things in a simplified way). So why does anyone around here feel they need to let the blame be put on them?

BTW, as you will have seen from our previous exchanges I understand you are sick and tired of this generalizing "cultural appropriation" one-accusation-fits-all swipe. But in fact, like JSngry pointed out correctly, the irony in how Allen Lowe approaches the subject should be obvious enough. Allen's hint at "appropriating culture" and its ironical implications in the way this is opposed to "cultural appropriation" ought to have been rather obvious. I did sense it but when he pointed out that turn of words it became ever so obvious. "See how the artists appropriated each other's culture across racial and stylistic boundaries." A "leitmotiv" in those of his writings I for one am familiar with. And correctly so IMO. Nuff said now for an explanation why I for one would not want to fuss about that title of his collection? (Allen, please keep it!!)
Looking closer at it, this would be a door that swings both ways anyway. You named Ray Charles's excursion into country music. Cultural appropriation? If not, why not? Certainly not from a oppressor-oppressed angle (the oppressed being entitled to appropriate the oppressor's muisc? Country music? With roots to the proverbial poor white rural hicks in the sticks as the oppressor?? And chart topper Ray Charles as the oppressed one? B.S.!).I'd even go a huge step further: If this "cultural approriation" pseudo argument is taken seriously, what business did John Lewis and the MJQ have appropriating Bach and European classical music anyway?? Not their "natural" playing ground (like whites accused of "cultural approriation" allegedly have no business taking from and engaging with black music - according to the zealot proponents of the "cultural appropriation" thing). And the MJQ sure made huge money from their appropriation.

Which leads us to the money angle. No doubt JSngry is right there. And IMO he nailed it in how he got Allen's intentions about the title right and I have no problem siding with him there - regardless of whether he likes it or not  , because - as any of those of you who follow this forum relatively closely will have noticed - I do speak my mind too and have been at odds with JSngry more often than I'd care to remember. But for all the verbal flak I certainly won't feel there is any reason why I should take that "Sangrey-only worldview" (to quote Ted O'Reilly) as anything like the final word. Ever. Whatever he says is one single man's opinion and not more. Never. He is entitled to his as I am entitled to mine. We can go on discussing opinions from there but I won't be frightened away. To paraphrase a saying we have around here, "To accomplish that, it'd take a gardener, not a seedling."  I usually take in stride whatever comes my way in discussions like this. In a way it's part of the game once discussions reach a certain intensity. Because, after all, all these exchanges, no matter how "aggressive" they sometimes get (I'd call them "outspoken" but apparently that is a no-no attitude today in many circles too these days), this is how forums work. And no doubt this is nothing compared to feuds on other forums. So I really wonder why people are so touchy? Just like Allen Lowe ought to be known for what he stands for, Jim Sangrey ought to be known well enough too. And I really wonder what anybody would gain from ducking this kind of controversy by shifting to the Hoffman forum where - by all accounts - you can get expelled on one man's whim??

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Big Beat Steve

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

There comes a point in any discussion when it just becomes meaningless fighting the same fights over and over again. Maybe that's what Mike meant. Some reach ths point earlier, some later (much later).

What I don't get, however, is why everybody is so exceedingly touchy about this particular topic. Is this a US thing?

Yes, and yes. 

Discussions of that type drove me away from a German classical music forum. There are still enough good things happening here to keep me from leavng, but in this case I simply think that supporting Allen is much more important than fussing about words. I won't say no more in this topic.

Edited September 28, 2019 by mikeweil

[Big Beat Steve]

9 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

 I simply think that supporting Allen is much more important than fussing about words.

+1

[Justin V]

Ugh.  I am not in the Allen fan club (although I wish him good health), but why derail his thread with so much political discussion, which is allegedly forbidden?  

[AllenLowe]

just for the record, I have no objection to the way this thread has developed.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

just for the record, I have no objection to the way this thread has developed.

Non-objection sustained.

However, since the discussion might pivot from a discussion of matters stemming from the title of this release into one entirely concerned with those matters, apart from this release, the advisement here is that such discussions would most appropriately be held/continued by interested parties via PM or non-forum means. In other words, as it pertains to the board and these issues, take it private.

The intent is not to stifle discussion, but to observer the board's rules against "political discussion". It's a fine line, of course, between a music-generated look at ongoing public issues and a solely issue-generated discourse, and it's a fine line not without overlap. But a line it is, and the line will be drawn here.

Signed,

Morris Ankrum

 

[Big Beat Steve]

Pre-order for the set and the book sent through Paypal.

Looking forward to it.