AllenLowe Posted September 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Hot Ptah said: Do you have a copy left for me to buy Allen? yes - no problem. Well, I had no idea that this had blown up like it has. I am a bit under the weather these days, so don't have a lot of energy to respond; however, I will say: 1) I am amused at being called an academic. I have been excluded from my attempts to get access to that world for many, many years. I have gotten in some major trouble as well for my detailed criticisms of academics and academia in the past. I think academia has been the near-ruination of the study of American music. I am completely unaffiliated and have always worked without any institutional support. 2) The sound is rough on this collection, especially, of course, the early years. I did my best, as all materials are from my own collection. 3) The phrase 'turn me loose white man' comes from an early minstrel song as sung by two white men; the title of the book has to do with the ambiguity and outright strangeness of a white man, imitating a black man within a form that was certainly a matter of cultural theft and subterfuge - though hidden in plain sight - seeming to ask for freedom of expression. 4) I use the phrase 'cultural appropriation' with intended irony. I think the whole idea has become just another socio-speak cliche. Edited September 26, 2019 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 I support Allen. It seems that people who habitually mock others for having their “trigger points” often have trigger points of their own, so the mere use of the word appropriation creates a fire storm in their minds. No room for irony. Delicate souls. Carry on, Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 20 minutes ago, David Ayers said: Carry on, Allen. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 On 9/22/2019 at 10:43 AM, JSngry said: But what gets sold certainly does have at least a claimed owner, and that process can arouse at least the aura of a theft. White guy Gene Lees, quoting Dizzy (Ithink it was...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 3 hours ago, AllenLowe said: 1) I am amused at being called an academic. I have been excluded from my attempts to get access to that world for many, many years. I have gotten in some major trouble as well for my detailed criticisms of academics and academia in the past. I think academia has been the near-ruination of the study of American music. I am completely unaffiliated and have always worked without any institutional support. I think this all speaks VERY much for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said: White guy Gene Lees, quoting Dizzy (Ithink it was...) Well, kumbayah and all that, but if something is sold, that pretty much disqualifies it from being a gift, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said: Every day I see the term used dozens of times and I'm supposed to figure out which one is being used ironically? I don't think so. That's like wearing a MAGA hat "ironically". or... you could get to know a little bit more about Allen, and then maybe not take the path of least-resistance when it comes to reading people and the things they say? I know, life is shot (and it's definitely getting shorter). But that may be all the more reason to pay attention to the details? Or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said: If I were publishing a book or album or whatever I would select its title without expecting my potential audience to conduct biographical research into the author. But that's just me. I think in today’s climate the title would not pass muster with a publishing house or a label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 Here's something we need to ask Allen about. Allen! TDT is on Spotify - some of it - and some of it is there but blanked out. So...what's with that...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Captain Howdy said: If I were publishing a book or album or whatever I would select its title without expecting my potential audience to conduct biographical research into the author. But that's just me. This is not a first-time author or other entry-level figure. Allen has been doing this for several decades now., making records of original music (with commentary) writing books about the formations and evolutions of American musics, etc. He's been there for a while now. If you're not familiar with him or his work, it's not because he's not been there to be found. For all the changes in the various hierarchies around the orbs of this music and its peoples, one constant remains - that of the individuals who go there own way on their own path, willing to go on in spite of the fact that the "institutional structures/powers that be" obsessively interpret any/all unwillingness to kiss their ass as an attempt to bite it. Just saying - assume nothing about those you don't know anything about. Labels and such are there for sales purposes, not as a path to learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, JSngry said: This is not a first-time author or other entry-level figure. Allen has been doing this for several decades now., making records of original music (with commentary) writing books about the formations and evolutions of American musics, etc. He's been there for a while now. If you're not familiar with him or his work, it's not because he's not been there to be found. For all the changes in the various hierarchies around the orbs of this music and its peoples, one constant remains - that of the individuals who go there own way on their own path, willing to go on in spite of the fact that the "institutional structures/powers that be" obsessively interpret any/all unwillingness to kiss their ass as an attempt to bite it. Just saying - assume nothing about those you don't know anything about. Labels and such are there for sales purposes, not as a path to learning. Well said. Do the writings (and, in fact, mindset) of Allen Lowe really need an introduction to long(ish)-time forumists here, of all places? It's not that everyone will agree with all of his opinions and evaluations of the histoiry of this music or put the emphasis where he does, but what he has to say (from all I have read) brings in fresh air in a field that is often bogged down IMO by too much "accepted wisdom" that does not question or challenge but confirm and comfort in a way that makes academic writings often appear like a self-centered echo chamber. Edited September 27, 2019 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 43 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said: Well said. Do the writings (and, in fact, mindset) of Allen Lowe really need an introduction to long(ish)-time forumists here, of all places? It's not that everyone will agree with all of his opinions and evaluations of the histoiry of this music or put the emphasis where he does, but what he has to say (from all I have read) brings in fresh air in a field that is often bogged down IMO by too much "accepted wisdom" that does not question or challenge but confirm and comfort in a way that makes academic writings often appear like a self-centered echo chamber. Ditto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 One mo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 20 hours ago, JSngry said: Well, kumbayah and all that, but if something is sold, that pretty much disqualifies it from being a gift, right? I always understood that Dizzy believed he gave his music to the world, that it was not stolen by his followers. If you want to ignore that, and bring Filthy Lucre into it, that's up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 21 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said: I always understood that Dizzy believed he gave his music to the world, that it was not stolen by his followers. If you want to ignore that, and bring Filthy Lucre into it, that's up to you. Wow, that's really naïve. Trudeau Tea now served! It's not about the music, it's about the money that has been made off the music and by extension the culture. Those are two entirely separate issues. If all that shit had been straight from jump (or had gottens straight since), the dreaded "cultural appropriation" thing would likely not be here. But no, people keep making excuses, and the more excuses get made, the more the pushback goes towards people looking at a history of people being brought into this world strictly as a type of cash crop. You start from there and work forward, waiting for a point to where you can say, oh, ok, here's where it all changed, stopped, turned around, and...still looking, still waiting. It has evolved, but it has not stopped. Sure, music itself is a gift. Most people like giving them, and most people like getting them, and EVERYBODY likes that cycle of getting/giving/giving back. otoh...records, sheet music, booking fees, artist contracts, anything having to do with the selling of the music (and that is what it is) is not a gift. Not even. As people who have experienced music both as feeling and as product, we should be keenly aware of that difference, especially if we wonder why everybody is so touchy these days. It's not just the "cultural appropriation" adherents that are simple-minded and tedious, it's the other side as well, The Deniers, the ones who insist that we're all beautiful souls and have only accepted the gift and done right by all. You as an individual probably have. But there is a collective reality, and the collective reality is that such a thing has not happened. It's not complicated. Really, it's not. It only gets that way when one feels a consistent need to make excuses rather than cop to the reality and then go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted September 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) I guess I thought the hint that I was being ironic was that I said Appropriating Culture, as a opposed to cultural appropriation; it's supposed to sound like a "How To...." I agree, actually, that the title shouldn't be so abstract as to require cover-to-cover perusal (and the reader shouldn't have to know all of my work). But once I again, I do think the word-switch points clearly enough in the right direction. Edited September 27, 2019 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 Or we could just buy this collection, enjoy the music, and not care so much about the title. I mean, who cared about the titles of a lot of albums and collections. We just bought the albums and listened to them and never pondered what the titles meant. I didn't, anyway. Just a few examples. "In the Court of the Crimson King". Who is this king? why is he crimson? what is his court like? is he an imperialist colonizer of native peoples, an oppressor of indigenous societies? Crimson has often meant bloodshed in the Bible and literature. Is this king a mass murderer, a Pol Pot kind of brutal monarch? We had better not listen to the album at all. "After Bathing at Baxter's" What is Baxter's? do you bathe there? Does that mean a private bath in a bathroom with a door with a lock on it, or is it some kind of public nudity pool or spa of some sort? Why are we "after" this bathing? It all sounds like it could be too kinky, or maybe the public nude bathing is exploitative of children or women who had been kidnapped into sex trafficking. Better not ever listen to it. "Blood on the Tracks" This title minimizes the brutal treatment of minority workers who built the Transcontinental Railroad. It seeks to profit from their suffering without providing necessary acknowledgment and monetary compensation to their heirs. To even look at the album jacket is to join the oppressors who degrade the workers' legacy. Don't even look at this album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 Good points, Hot Ptah. VERY good points. Will NOT listen to Luther Allison's "LIfe Is A BItch" now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 29 minutes ago, Hot Ptah said: "Blood on the Tracks" This title minimizes the brutal treatment of minority workers who built the Transcontinental Railroad. It seeks to profit from their suffering without providing necessary acknowledgment and monetary compensation to their heirs. To even look at the album jacket is to join the oppressors who degrade the workers' legacy. Don't even look at this album. Wrong Dylan record!!!!! Or, ya' know, we could do both, listen to music for its own sake AND contemplate cultural implications, forwards and backwards. You can even do them in different thought, uh...trains. Once again, sustaining a lie is too much damn work. Truth is always easier in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 5 hours ago, JSngry said: 5 hours ago, JSngry said: Wow, that's really naïve. Trudeau Tea now served! It's not about the music, it's about the money that has been made off the music and by extension the culture. Those are two entirely separate issues. If all that shit had been straight from jump (or had gottens straight since), the dreaded "cultural appropriation" thing would likely not be here. But no, people keep making excuses, and the more excuses get made, the more the pushback goes towards people looking at a history of people being brought into this world strictly as a type of cash crop. You start from there and work forward, waiting for a point to where you can say, oh, ok, here's where it all changed, stopped, turned around, and...still looking, still waiting. It has evolved, but it has not stopped. Sure, music itself is a gift. Most people like giving them, and most people like getting them, and EVERYBODY likes that cycle of getting/giving/giving back. otoh...records, sheet music, booking fees, artist contracts, anything having to do with the selling of the music (and that is what it is) is not a gift. Not even. As people who have experienced music both as feeling and as product, we should be keenly aware of that difference, especially if we wonder why everybody is so touchy these days. It's not just the "cultural appropriation" adherents that are simple-minded and tedious, it's the other side as well, The Deniers, the ones who insist that we're all beautiful souls and have only accepted the gift and done right by all. You as an individual probably have. But there is a collective reality, and the collective reality is that such a thing has not happened. It's not complicated. Really, it's not. It only gets that way when one feels a consistent need to make excuses rather than cop to the reality and then go from there. Wow, I'm naive. I'm not Murcan (wtf is Trudeau Tea?) , so therefore stupidly ignorant. Thank you for explaining that everything I've ever learned and appreciated about jazz for the last 60+ years is wrong, wrong wrong, and that everything needs to be viewed through your/Organissimo's lens. I bow down to your superior knowledge and world-understanding. I met and talked with Dizzy. Did you? I met and recorded/interviewed with Duke, Basie, Braxton, Lloyd, Cannonball, Chet, Bill Evans, Carmen McRae Russell Procope, Ella, Paul Desmond, Jay; McShann, Duke Pearson, Cedar Walton, Zoot Sims, Buddy Tate, Don Pullen, Ed Bickert, Flip Phillips, Kenny Barron,Martial Solal, Earl Hines,James Moody, Kenny Wheeler, Moncef Genoud, Geoff Keezer, Cab Calloway, Rob McConnell, Don Menza, Jimmie Rowles and several dozens more, yet have never bothered to try to understand about jazz. I'm naive. I'm also out of here. I just can't take the JSangrey-only worldview any more. You're right, everyone else is stupid/naive/wrong. Bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, Ted O'Reilly said: Wow, I'm naive. I'm not Murcan (wtf is Trudeau Tea?) , so therefore stupidly ignorant. Thank you for explaining that everything I've ever learned and appreciated about jazz for the last 60+ years is wrong, wrong wrong, and that everything needs to be viewed through your/Organissimo's lens. I bow down to your superior knowledge and world-understanding. I met and talked with Dizzy. Did you? I met and recorded/interviewed with Duke, Basie, Braxton, Lloyd, Cannonball, Chet, Bill Evans, Carmen McRae Russell Procope, Ella, Paul Desmond, Jay; McShann, Duke Pearson, Cedar Walton, Zoot Sims, Buddy Tate, Don Pullen, Ed Bickert, Flip Phillips, Kenny Barron,Martial Solal, Earl Hines,James Moody, Kenny Wheeler, Moncef Genoud, Geoff Keezer, Cab Calloway, Rob McConnell, Don Menza, Jimmie Rowles and several dozens more, yet have never bothered to try to understand about jazz. I'm naive. I'm also out of here. I just can't take the JSangrey-only worldview any more. You're right, everyone else is stupid/naive/wrong. Bye. Ted, we could use your staying here. Too many have left already. However, if you do there are a few good threads at the Hoffman Forum. You’ll see a few familiar faces but best of all, no BS. Just people enjoying the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 I’m feeling what Ted’s feeling. I stated my opinion about the title of Allen’s forthcoming box, and was told in response that my opinion is wrong and I shouldn’t have voiced it. Really? My opinion holds, regardless of Jim’s word salad verbiage, Allen’s illness (for which I wish him a speedy and complete recovery), my lack of knowledge of Allen’s prior oeuvre, and whatever else. People have different opinions; why not leave room for them? Allen: I’ve preordered your box and look forward to hearing it, but your title sucks; that’s my opinion. It’s not too late to change it to Turn Me On Dead Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 In case nobody's noticed, I'm supporting Allen's title. The irony was obvious, imo, but then again, I'm familiar with Allen and his perspective. In case nobody's noticed, I'm also tired of the whole "cultural appropriation" conversation, but only because it shouldn't have got to this point. It's not evolution, it's devolution (are we NOT men?). But let's not kid ourselves - what is driving the whole notion of "theft" is not really music - it's economics. Money. Who's gotten paid and who's not. How was all this capital created, and where has it ended up. There's really no debate about that. As they say, follow the money. We got, what? two ginormous "major label conglomorates" left? Does anybody in even half a right mind question that many artists, of ALL cultures, were screwed over the years? Of course not. But look, Angsty White People, the issue of "Black Capital" is real, and hell yeah, racism (institutional and personal) has been a at-the-very-least-historical factor in this. To not see this requires a mathematics that has no grounding in reality, Zero-G Caluculus. This conversation WILL be had, like it or not, and if Us White Folk are "tired of being blamed", well shit, don't take it personal,at least as far as what's already happened. But what happens in OUR time IS our responsibility. Yes, inanity abounds. But if there's neither style nor substance points to be won by ANYBODY in the discussions being had, it's because basic realities are being ignored - on all sides - and reality is being injected-molded into some Creepy Crawler thing. You guys can bitch and moan and justify all you want. Have fun with that. ok? Tea time! And he's one of the "good guys"!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 On the one hand, so much bullshit. SO. MUCH. BULLSHIT. OTOH, uh...yeah. If "we're" going to rightfully be "blamed" for anything in/of today, it's probably going to be simply not listening. Just reflexive Denying & Justifying. We're jsut sitting there fouuing of Strike three thinking that eventually they'll stop throwing or else we're gonna get a good hold of one and knock it out of the park. Seems to be a not wholly unreasonable rap? Allen, change the tittle to "Careful, White Man Bruise Easily". I don't think that most White People are "racists", but they sure as hell don't pay attention very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brad said: Ted, we could use your staying here. Too many have left already. However, if you do there are a few good threads at the Hoffman Forum. You’ll see a few familiar faces but best of all, no BS. Just people enjoying the music. I checked it out but there didn't seem to be that much jazz content. Is there a sub-forum I missed? And did people leave or were they driven away? 46 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said: I think you're both being overly sensitive. We're just having a discussion here. This is a vicar's tea party compared to other forums I've been in. And you're proud of that? Edited September 27, 2019 by medjuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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