Miles Davis’ lost album “Rubberband” set for release

[Gheorghe]

On ‎15‎.‎06‎.‎2019 at 9:24 AM, erwbol said:

I listened to Amandla last night. A nice 80s pop album. Nothing more. Calling side A of Tutu a masterpiece is just one man's opinion. I think I'd rather own a copy of Amandla on CD.

I haven´t listend to it for years, but if I remember right, I thought that "Amandla" had a bit more playing of real musicians, than just machines. "Mr. Pastorius" sounded much more like a tune played by musicians, and I think on one track they had flown in an acoustic pianist too (was it Joe Sample ?). Maybe in reality there was also a lot of machines and synthies and drum computers, but it didn´t sound so artificial as was the case with "Tutu".

 

[erwbol]

3 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I haven´t listend to it for years, but if I remember right, I thought that "Amandla" had a bit more playing of real musicians, than just machines. "Mr. Pastorius" sounded much more like a tune played by musicians, and I think on one track they had flown in an acoustic pianist too (was it Joe Sample ?). Maybe in reality there was also a lot of machines and synthies and drum computers, but it didn´t sound so artificial as was the case with "Tutu".

 

Very true.

[Rooster_Ties]

I remember thinking Amandla was the stronger album overall (over Tutu). But nothing on Amandla was quite as strong as the individual song "Tutu", which was probably the single strongest track Miles did in all of the 80's/90's.

[Brad]

On 6/13/2019 at 6:35 PM, erwbol said:

Count me out. I don't own any of the Warner albums.

 

On 6/14/2019 at 1:17 AM, BFrank said:

I don't see getting it, either. Never was very interested in the Warner years.

Count me out as well. 

[Rooster_Ties]

9 hours ago, David Ayers said:

I like the sample track. 

Just listened to the sample track again (and more closely than last time) - Yeah, it's not half-bad.  Absent Miles, of course, count me out.  But I think I like it better than half of Miles early-80's Columbia (pre-Tutu) output.  The Man with the Horn, Star People, and even Decoy never did all that much for me.  I remember sort of liking You're Under Arrest a little better, but not tons.

[JSngry]

Jeez, I hope Miles is not entering his Jimi Hendrix/Alan Douglas phase...

Musically/creatively Star People and Decoy are both acres apart (sorry, not gonna say miles apart) from The Man With The Horn and You're Under Arrest. I don't know why some people just lump them (and all the WB albums, for that matter) all together. Maybe it's the instrumentation, maybe the production, I don't know. But there is a pretty radical difference in both the type and the level of musical content between these records. "Liking" it or not, that's none of my business, but a serious listener should be able to discern that other that being "post-comeback Miles Davis records", The Man With The Horn and Decoy are two fundamentally different things, as, for that matter, are Tutu and Amandala.

[erwbol]

7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Jeez, I hope Miles is not entering his Jimi Hendrix/Alan Douglas phase...

Apart from this alarming finishing of uncompleted/abandoned studio material by Warner, Sony still has too much high quality live recordings from Europe & Japan to choose from for  the bootleg series for that analogy to be appropriate. 

 

13 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Musically/creatively Star People and Decoy are both acres apart (sorry, not gonna say miles apart) from The Man With The Horn and You're Under Arrest. I don't know why some people just lump them (and all the WB albums, for that matter) all together. Maybe it's the instrumentation, maybe the production, I don't know. But there is a pretty radical difference in both the type and the level of musical content between these records. "Liking" it or not, that's none of my business, but a serious listener should be able to discern that other that being "post-comeback Miles Davis records", The Man With The Horn and Decoy are two fundamentally different things, as, for that matter, are Tutu and Amandala.

I don't lump them together musically. For me, what unites all 80s efforts is that they suck quite heavily.

[JSngry]

whatever that means...

[erwbol]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

whatever that means...

That you are more forgiving than I am?

[JSngry]

There's still people who say that about the 70s work, like Fillmore and Big Fun and On The Corner and Pangea all suck, and I'm like, really? Those are four really different musics and they all suck? That's the only observation? No awareness of the differences (and the similarities), no weighing of the differencs, they just "all" suck.

That's kinda like saying all vegetables suck...or that all orange vegetables suck. It's not something I can take seriously as anything other than a really simplistic explanation of a perhaps uncritical guy instinct.

[erwbol]

Those people are mistaken. 

I have been listening to these 80s albums at least since Miles' passing in 1992. There was a cover story in Dutch rock magazine Oor, and at that time these albums were available for loan from the local library. (If only they had had some of the second great quintet albums.) Since 2009 I own all of the Columbia albums as part of The Complete Columbia Album Collection. I have given these albums chance after chance, and they aren't very good IMO. 

And as with Sonny Rollins post 60s, you do seem to have a high tolerance for seeking out nuggets of gold in a pile of dung. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by erwbol

[JSngry]

Just now, erwbol said:

That you are more forgiving than I am?

forgiving of what? I listen to the actual music being played, the musical devices, the individual players, the intent, try to look at each performance as something other than sound coming out of the speakers. What is there to forgive?

Somebody on here posted a really nasty putdown of Ricky Wellman a while back, and I'm like, whoa, you must not know who Ricky Wellman was, Ricky Wellman a significant musical contributor before he ever played with Miles, and it's a pleasure to experience his Ricky Wellman-ess and all that springs forth from it being there on Miles Davis records. Same with Kenny Garrett, same with John Scofield, same with Marcus Miller (as bassist and as producer), same with Adam Holzman, same with etcetcetc. These people were all players with contributions to make and how they made them with Miles is not at the level of "suck".

Nothing there to forgive, and besides, I don't forgive either Dingo or that record with Quincy, because there's nothing there to forgive. They're just not good records, period. Dingo is actually a piece of well-palyed crap, #michellegrandsturdsnotalwaysgold. Not looking to ever hear them again, didn't pay money for them then or now. No harm, no foul,

[kh1958]

My only live experiences with Miles Davis were post-final comeback. I'm glad I was able to hear him live three times. The last two (during the Warner era, with Kenny Garrett and Foley) were the best. His sound was still beautiful. Those were great experiences, nothing "sucked" about them.
 

[erwbol]

I am not a musician and am not prepared to spend two weeks locked in a room with Miles' 80s output and then report back here before quickly dialling the suicide hotline. This is as nuanced as I'm going to get.

[JSngry]

5 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Those people are mistaken. 

I have been listening to these 80s albums at least since Miles' passing in 1992. There was a cover story in Dutch rock magazine Oor, and at that time these albums were available for loan from the local library. (If only they had had some of the second great quartet albums.) Since 2009 I own all of the Columbia albums as part of The Complete Columbia Album Collection. I have given these albums chance after chance, and they aren't very good IMO. 

And as with Sonny Rollins post 60s, you do seem to have a high tolerance for seeking out nuggets of gold in a pile of dung. 

Yeah, well, I listened to them all in real time, for whatever difference that makes. But I can tell you with no doubt that the step-up from The Man With The Horn & We Want Miles to Star People & Decoy was palpable, meaningful and amore than a bit of a relief, actually. And with everything else that was happening at the time on either side of "the fence" it was great to hear that Miles wasn't going backwards.

Have you really listened to Decoy? There's a lot of shit going on there, it's in no way simple music. Compare that to the bar-band 70s Miles of The Man With The Horn & We Want Miles...yes, progress, yes, involvement, yes, ideas again, engagement, music. Real music.

As for Sonny, hey - life itself is most often a pile of dung. Hell yeah I'm looking for the gold, and happy to find it. A little nugget here, a little nugget there, next thing you know, you got something usable.

5 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

My only live experiences with Miles Davis were post-final comeback. I'm glad I was able to hear him live three times. The last two (during the Warner era, with Kenny Garrett and Foley) were the best. His sound was still beautiful. Those were great experiences, nothing "sucked" about them.
 

And the way he built the orchestration of/within the band over the span of a show...masterful.

[erwbol]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Have you really listened to Decoy?

I never connected emotionally with Decoy. Perhaps that one could be worth revisiting again.

[JSngry]

I'm not about to argue emotional connectivity, that's entirely personal/subjective. No wrong answers there.

But "suck", that's a claim of something deeper than just "it doesn't reach me"...although, as a crude, emotional ejaculation totally devoid of any thought whatsoever, hey, I myself use it with glee, so feel free to call me out the next time you catch me doing it, it'll come soon enough...

 

[erwbol]

Ok, don't argue with the experts. You're only here to fix the cable.

[JSngry]

There's a LOT of cables on Decoy!

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, erwbol said:

I never connected emotionally with Decoy. Perhaps that one could be worth revisiting again.

I never really connected with Decoy either.  I've never been too negative about 80's Miles, 'cept to say that the earlier in the 80's, the less interesting I generally found it.

I know I've heard all of it, but I don't think I ever actually owned copies of Man With The Horn, We Want Miles, or Star People (though I might have had a cassette dub of We Want Miles at some point).

I did own a real copy of Decoy (back in college, circa 1990) and also You're Under Arrest, but I only found the later one worth keeping (though later I finally got rid of everything but Aura.

I also had about 15-18 hours of various "live" Miles VHS tapes of broadcast concerts from every year in the 80's -- tons of stuff I bought for like $8-$10 per videotape from an ad in the back of Goldmine, iirc.  More damn versions of "Human Nature" and "Time After Time" than I have fingers and toes.  Had about 10(?) hours of pre-80's Miles on VHS too -- 3rd, 4th, 7th generation dubs.  Man, was that ever cool to have back then when NOBODY else had that stuff (nobody I knew, in any case), before you could stream all of it at the press of a button on your phone.

[JSngry]

Star People is a great record, imo. Apparently Teo edited the fuck out of it (surprise!) to the point of rearranging Bill Evans' solos (and he was not too happy about that!). No matter how it came to be, it's a very "hot" record, basically a Miles Plays The Blues Today record (and I think it was one that Gil Evans had a big hand in as well?). Scofield (with whom I have lost interest like a very slowly developing flat tire) is great on hear, as soloist and comper, his quirky sense of time and harmony was never on better display (context matters!) than it was here.

Decoy, otoh, is a very "cool" record (some would say cold), and very aptly titles, imo. There a lot of subterfuge in this music, a lot of "saying one thing and meaning another". It's not too terribly emotionally different from what Gary Thomas was doing at the time on his own M-Base dates. Those were very cool/cold too. I loved them, but I get how they would not be for everybody.

Just sayin' - there is substance on both of these records. Emotional attachment is up to the individual, but there is substance, ideas that consciously and knowingly push against the norms of least resistance.

You're Under Arrest, otoh, is the one Columbia record that pissed me off from the first play. Maybe the title cut killed it for me, but it sounded (and still sounds to me), like a cartoon...no, not a cartoon, a caricature. Other that that one tune, what is it, "Katia"?, the whole thing sounds like it's not meant to be taken seriously. The irony is that it's also the record that introduced "Human Nature" and "Time After Time" to the Miles repertoire, and they stuck around up til the end. So what do I know, other than I loudly cursed at the record while it was playing, and not in the good way.

[king ubu]

I'm with @JSngry all down the line here ... love "Amandla", love "Star Time", quite enjoy "Decoy", love "Tutu" beyond Side 1 (never owned it on LP though, too young for that), never got why I should be interested in "You're Under Arrest" ... and yeah, "Aura", too. Also I remain pretty fond of "We Want Miles", which (same goes for "Amandla") was one of the recordings that were important to me when discovering jazz (heck: music) in my early teens.

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

Star People is a great record, imo. Apparently Teo edited the fuck out of it (surprise!) to the point of rearranging Bill Evans' solos (and he was not too happy about that!). No matter how it came to be, it's a very "hot" record, basically a Miles Plays The Blues Today record (and I think it was one that Gil Evans had a big hand in as well?). Scofield (with whom I have lost interest like a very slowly developing flat tire) is great on hear, as soloist and comper, his quirky sense of time and harmony was never on better display (context matters!) than it was here.

Decoy, otoh, is a very "cool" record (some would say cold), and very aptly titles, imo. There a lot of subterfuge in this music, a lot of "saying one thing and meaning another". It's not too terribly emotionally different from what Gary Thomas was doing at the time on his own M-Base dates. Those were very cool/cold too. I loved them, but I get how they would not be for everybody.

Just sayin' - there is substance on both of these records. Emotional attachment is up to the individual, but there is substance, ideas that consciously and knowingly push against the norms of least resistance.

You're Under Arrest, otoh, is the one Columbia record that pissed me off from the first play. Maybe the title cut killed it for me, but it sounded (and still sounds to me), like a cartoon...no, not a cartoon, a caricature. Other that that one tune, what is it, "Katia"?, the whole thing sounds like it's not meant to be taken seriously. The irony is that it's also the record that introduced "Human Nature" and "Time After Time" to the Miles repertoire, and they stuck around up til the end. So what do I know, other than I loudly cursed at the record while it was playing, and not in the good way.

100% agreement ! I´d say I had the same impressions: And I think they were exactly how Miles played his live shows in those years 1983-1985:

The 1983 "Star People" reflected what I saw "live" in spring 1983: Still a band playing instruments, Al Foster on drums, Mike Stern AND John Scofield so you had both elements, the more rock-sounding Mike Stern and the more cool and laid-back Scofield, and a lot of playing. There was no keyboard player, only Miles filled in on keyboard here and there, as he did in 1974-75.

The 1984 "Decoy" .....well maybe it´s my own fault, maybe after liking Star People so much I expected more, or better said, something else. I think, and that´s how I felt when I saw Miles again in 1984, that 1984 was a year of "transition". Miles, who had started his comeback with a really playing stage band in 1981 and kept that kind of stuff until 1983, was looking for a change but still did not no in which direction to go.

Finally in 1985 he had decided to go "pop" and commercially strong. The electronic keyboards got a bigger role, the drums became more mecanic and could have been replaced by machines, the stuff became more music you can hear on headphones, not necessarly famous for jazz solos. I saw Miles twice in 1985. In July he played exactly what´s on "You Are Under Arrest" and in November which was quite a tired, weak thing, I think there was more from "Rubberband" in it, I remember then he had Marylin Mazur on percussion....

[ejp626]

I've seen the marketing machine gearing up for this album (I guess it hits in Sept.).

Assuming Rubberband comes to iTunes, I imagine I'll listen to a couple of tracks, but that would be the extent of it.  The sample track certainly didn't grab me.

Of the late Miles mentioned upthread, I remember thinking Amandla and Aura were probably the best.  I probably have a bit of a soft spot for the Dingo soundtrack, but I haven't listened to it in a long, long time.

[Teasing the Korean]

On June 15, 2019 at 8:19 PM, JSngry said:

Look, 1985 was terrifying, and for many reasons. But Miles was not one of them.

We'll agree to disagree.  His look in the 1980s was as bad as his music.