Percy France Discography Help

[Dan Gould]

Anyone have  Bruyninckx handy? I am told that he lists some Percy France recordings in Europe ... if someone can check and indicate if these would just be Doggett recordings of King tracks or possibly something else I'd be most appreciative. 

[mikeweil]

Will have to go down to the basement for my Bruyninkx copy. Lord usually has everything from there, but I cannot see anything recorded in Europe. What time span?

 

[Dan Gould]

No idea I am afraid Mike was only told that there were "possible" dates in Europe.  He did a black and blue date in the 70s led by Oliver jackson but not sure if all were recorded in France or not? Thanks!

[jazztrain]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

No idea I am afraid Mike was only told that there were "possible" dates in Europe.  He did a black and blue date in the 70s led by Oliver jackson but not sure if all were recorded in France or not? Thanks!

Lord shows the Oliver Jackson Black & Blue date as being recorded in NY, FWIW.

I don't see anything by France in Europe in Bruyninkx.

[mikeweil]

Same here. See my pm. Dan, do you have access to the Tom Lord Discography? As jazztrain said, noting with France listed there was recorded in Europe.

[brownie]

The Lord discography lists an Oliver Jackson LP on Black & Blue 'Oliver Jackson' présents Le Quartet' with Percy France, Leonard Gaskin and Jackson. Recorded in New York in September 1982, it says...

 

[Dan Gould]

18 minutes ago, brownie said:

The Lord discography lists an Oliver Jackson LP on Black & Blue 'Oliver Jackson' présents Le Quartet' with Percy France, Leonard Gaskin and Jackson. Recorded in New York in September 1982, it says...

 

Yes got that one. Thanks to all ... 

[Dan Gould]

OK now curious about Betty Mays because she employed Percy, his first gig.  And what a group she had - Cecil Payne, JJ and Kai, Gil Coggins on piano along with Percy. So I landed a copy of her 78 on Regal - Mays' Haze with an instrumental, Slow Rock, on the flip. 

Now I've found a copy of Yes Indeed! Women Vocalists on United, issued by Delmark when they got a hold of the United vaults. Credits verify the same band with Percy (and on clarinet which I am not hearing either in the ensembles or solos), also has a 1949 recording date like the Regal 78. 

So there are three tracks on the Delmark issue - two takes of Mays Haze (neither notated as unissued) and an 'unissued' take of Old Mill Stream.  

So now I am wondering - did Mays record Mays Haze three times, twice for United and again for Regal? Did Regal lease it from United or vice versa? Track times are slightly off but I am going to closely compare solos.

And, are there any other known recordings of Ms Mays and her Swingtet featuring Percy France?

As always, thanks in advance!

Edit to say: United Take 2 is definitely issued Regal track. And interestingly, I have to say Percy sounds better on the new-to-me take 1.

If anyone can indicate session order for Betty Mays on United/Regal I'd appreciate it!

Edited May 18, 2019 by Dan Gould

[Dan Gould]

Boy it gets more confused. The Delmark comp lists November 4 1949 as recording date for the United tracks, and another online source gives the same for the Regal 78. So ... same session, right? But I also see a mention online that United Records didn't come into existence until 1951. So were all tracks for Regal, but Regal appears to have issued one 78 only while they had the recordings, and then United purchased them and issued others sometime in the 50s?  Did the entire session consist of:

Mays' Haze Takes 1 and 2

Old Mill Stream

Slow Rock (omit vocal)

?

Edited May 18, 2019 by Dan Gould

[jazztrain]

This is what Lord has for Betty Mays sessions including Percy France:

Betty Mays
[M3605-16] Betty Mays
Betty Mays (vcl) acc by Sol Amato (tp) Percy France (cl,ts) Johnny Griffin (ts) Gil Coggins (p) Arthur Phipps (b) George James (d) 
New York, September 27, 1949
    The nearness of you    Abbey 3007
    Until the real thing comes along         -

Betty Mays
[M3606-16] Betty Mays
Betty Mays And Her Swingtet: 
Betty Mays (vcl) acc by Bernie Glow (tp) Kai Winding, J.J. Johnson (tb) Percy France (cl,ts) Cecil Payne (bar) Gil Coggins (p) Arthur Phipps (b) George James (d) 
New York, November 4, 1949
1110    May's haze    Regal 3243
1111    Slow rock (inst)         -
    Old mill stream    (unissued)
    Why fool yourself         -
    Gimme a pound         -

 

 

 

[Dan Gould]

33 minutes ago, jazztrain said:

This is what Lord has for Betty Mays sessions including Percy France:

Betty Mays
[M3605-16] Betty Mays
Betty Mays (vcl) acc by Sol Amato (tp) Percy France (cl,ts) Johnny Griffin (ts) Gil Coggins (p) Arthur Phipps (b) George James (d) 
New York, September 27, 1949
    The nearness of you    Abbey 3007
    Until the real thing comes along         -

Betty Mays
[M3606-16] Betty Mays
Betty Mays And Her Swingtet: 
Betty Mays (vcl) acc by Bernie Glow (tp) Kai Winding, J.J. Johnson (tb) Percy France (cl,ts) Cecil Payne (bar) Gil Coggins (p) Arthur Phipps (b) George James (d) 
New York, November 4, 1949
1110    May's haze    Regal 3243
1111    Slow rock (inst)         -
    Old mill stream    (unissued)
    Why fool yourself         -
    Gimme a pound         -

 

 

 

Thanks - so the last three are unissued, except for the fact that Lord, or your version, never caught up to the 2004 Delmark issue of United recordings which adds a take of Mays' Haze and issues Old Mill Stream. Guess I will start looking for the Abbey recording.

[Dan Gould]

Can you look up Frank Fat Man Humphries?  Percy supposedly performed with him after Betty and before Doggett, and now I actually have a connection between Humphries and Mays - both recorded for Abbey Records.  There are two singles, Birmingham Bounce and Doby at the Bat (Herbie Nichols by the way on piano, supposedly!) that are actually on a comp. I had my eye on but I don't have proof that Percy is the tenor.

Thanks!

Edited May 18, 2019 by Dan Gould

[jazztrain]

Out to dinner. Will check for you later. 

[mikeweil]

This is what Lord says:

Frank "Fat Man" Humphries (tp) Herbie Nichols (p) others unknown.

c. 1950

G756	Birmingham bounce	Abbey 3016
G757	Doby at the bat	-

[Dan Gould]

Thanks Mike I kind of figured that would probably be the info listed as that is what the youtube poster listed.

 

[Niko]

Mario Schneeberger's document (solography) on Humphries (link) also just has this info... 

edit: fixed damaged link... 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Niko

[jazztrain]

11 hours ago, mikeweil said:

This is what Lord says:

Frank "Fat Man" Humphries (tp) Herbie Nichols (p) others unknown.

c. 1950

G756	Birmingham bounce	Abbey 3016
G757	Doby at the bat	-

You beat me to it!  For those who might not get the reference, Doby refers to Larry Doby, the first black Major League Baseball player in the American League (Jackie Robinson) was in the National League. 

[Dan Gould]

Could someone please look up recording date/location for

Sir Charles Thompson And The Swing Organ

I know its a 1959 issue not sure about recording date etc.

 

Thanks!

[jazztrain]

This one?

 

Sir Charles Thompson
[T3035-16]
Sir Charles Thompson And The Swing Organ: 
Percy France (ts) Rudy Rutherford (cl) Sir Charles Thompson (p,org) Aaron Bell (b) J.C. Heard (d) 
New York, 1960
    Cool and easy    Col CL1364
    I get a kick out of you       -
    Robbins' nest       -
    The lady in red       -
    April love       -
    19th hole       -
    Jumpin' at Basie's       -
    I wanna love you       -
    What's new ?       -
    Oh me ! Oh my !       -
    Love is a many splendored thing       -
    Party time       -

 

[Dan Gould]

That's it, and you saved me from an error as I understood it to be 1959 not 1960.

 

Thanks.

[jazztrain]

That's assuming that Lord is correct.  Not always a good assumption.

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, jazztrain said:

That's assuming that Lord is correct.  Not always a good assumption.

True. for my purposes there would be better "flow" if I decided its not 1960 recording date but you got to go with what you have so ... unless anyone chimes in with other info, it is what he say it is.

[jazztrain]

Well, jazzdisco.com has the following:

Sir Charles Thompson And The Swing Organ  (Columbia CL 1364)

Rudy Rutherford, clarinet; Percy France, tenor sax; Sir Charles Thompson, organ; Aaron Bell, bass; J.C. Heard, drums.

Columbia Studios, NYC, released 1959

	I Get A Kick Out Of You
	Cool And Easy
	Robbins' Nest
	Lady In Red
	April Love
	19th Hole
	Jumpin' At Basie's
	I Wanta Love You
	What's New
	Oh Me, Oh My
	Love Is A Many Splendored Thing
	Party Time

** also issued on Columbia CS 8205.

The February 1, 1960 issue of Billboard pictures the album:  https://books.google.com/books?id=BR8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=charles+thompson+and+his+swing+organ&source=bl&ots=bAH0oQxUq7&sig=ACfU3U1PtUoTWHBz31qOunCvAqRDT3tuNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiwhs6SpeXjAhXy1FkKHYLeCo44HhDoATAEegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=charles%20thompson%20and%20his%20swing%20organ&f=false

That would certainly support a 1959 recording date.  It's unlikely that Columbia would get it out that quickly.

Edited August 2, 2019 by jazztrain

[Dan Gould]

11 hours ago, jazztrain said:

Well, jazzdisco.com has the following:

Sir Charles Thompson And The Swing Organ  (Columbia CL 1364)

Rudy Rutherford, clarinet; Percy France, tenor sax; Sir Charles Thompson, organ; Aaron Bell, bass; J.C. Heard, drums.

Columbia Studios, NYC, released 1959

	I Get A Kick Out Of You
	Cool And Easy
	Robbins' Nest
	Lady In Red
	April Love
	19th Hole
	Jumpin' At Basie's
	I Wanta Love You
	What's New
	Oh Me, Oh My
	Love Is A Many Splendored Thing
	Party Time

** also issued on Columbia CS 8205.

The February 1, 1960 issue of Billboard pictures the album:  https://books.google.com/books?id=BR8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=charles+thompson+and+his+swing+organ&source=bl&ots=bAH0oQxUq7&sig=ACfU3U1PtUoTWHBz31qOunCvAqRDT3tuNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiwhs6SpeXjAhXy1FkKHYLeCo44HhDoATAEegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=charles%20thompson%20and%20his%20swing%20organ&f=false

That would certainly support a 1959 recording date.  It's unlikely that Columbia would get it out that quickly.

That's what I was thinking I should look for, promo ads to see approximately when it hit stores,  and that settles it. We're back to 1959 as the recording date. Thanks!

[Dan Gould]

I sure hope this isn't the Percy France but its the earliest mention I've found  online - Billboard magazine August 1947. He would have been 19 years old so not entirely impossible. But I hope its not him, because the review is horrible and because now I'd have two super old records to try to find.