Mosaic's Black and White label box set

[ghost of miles]

Scott Wenzel provided some elaboration about this project for a Night Lights blog post:

Mosaic is planning a Black and White label box set

[JSngry]

It would be a neat joke if they used a color cover photo on the box this time.

[Brad]

I'm not sure if I'm up for a 12 cd box set whose theme is similar to what has been done in the past. Maybe no, maybe yes. 

[mikeweil]

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

It would be a neat joke if they used a color cover photo on the box this time.

[mikeweil]

To quote from the page linked in the opening post:

"The projected Black and White label set will be 12 CDs at most, focusing on jazz content, and will include artists such as progressive big-band leaders Gerald Wilson and Earle Spencer, pianists Art Hodes, Cliff Jackson, and Willie the Lion Smith, vocalist Helen Humes, and clarinetists Barney Bigard and Joe Marsala. Saxophonist Jack McVea and some other musicians whose recordings for Black and White fall more into an R and B or blues category will not be included; neither will several jazz sides, such as saxophonist Charlie Ventura’s, that were sold for release on other labels, or recorded for other labels and then sold to Black and White (such as the recordings that Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie made with Red Norvo for Comet, subsequently licensed to Black and White)." 

Are the Jack McVea sides that much R&B? I can understand they omit T-Bone Walker as they covered these a long time ago. And is it really enough for "at most" 12 CDs?

[sidewinder]

There comes a stage when you have to consider whether or not you will ever get through listening to 12 CDs of this stuff, even considering retirement listening time, taking into account the ‘to be opened’ pending pile building up.

Good that Mosaic are still gung-ho with releases though.

Edited April 27, 2019 by sidewinder

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

To quote from the page linked in the opening post:

"The projected Black and White label set will be 12 CDs at most, focusing on jazz content, and will include artists such as progressive big-band leaders Gerald Wilson and Earle Spencer, pianists Art Hodes, Cliff Jackson, and Willie the Lion Smith, vocalist Helen Humes, and clarinetists Barney Bigard and Joe Marsala. Saxophonist Jack McVea and some other musicians whose recordings for Black and White fall more into an R and B or blues category will not be included; neither will several jazz sides, such as saxophonist Charlie Ventura’s, that were sold for release on other labels, or recorded for other labels and then sold to Black and White (such as the recordings that Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie made with Red Norvo for Comet, subsequently licensed to Black and White)." 

Are the Jack McVea sides that much R&B? I can understand they omit T-Bone Walker as they covered these a long time ago. And is it really enough for "at most" 12 CDs?

I was fascinated by the prospect of a B&W box set (though I have a fair share on older vinyl reissues and also a handful of 78s) but this sort of selectiveness is begining to cloud things seriously for me. I am afraid with this kind of policy they will go for the "obvious" suspects (including everything that seasoned collectors have on the Storyville LPs - I'd certainly not be the only one among the target audience for this kid of set who'd then be heavily into duplications) but omit less obvious items that have never seen reissue (Phil Moore, for example?).And like you, I'd challenge the assertion that Jack McVea is that much R&B (or is R&B the new "shame word" within jazz again these days?). Or is it that we see an outdated approach to jazz from that period here that denigrates entertainment and tries to go for the "lofty arts"? I'd have thought those who run Mosaic know better than that by now.

[Brad]

Considering the iffy financial state of Mosaic, I think they have to be careful at what is in or is out of the set as the set might become too large, making it harder to sell, not to mention how much space large sets may take up in their office -- administrative costs, etc. Although I would like to see McVea included, it's better to have this set than not. Sometimes you have to make financial decisions as to what you can do. 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 minute ago, Brad said:

Considering the iffy financial state of Mosaic, I think they have to be careful at what is in or is out of the set as the set might become too large, making it harder to sell, not to mention how much space large sets may take up in their office -- administrative costs, etc. Although I would like to see McVea included, it's better to have this set than not. Sometimes you have to make financial decisions as to what you can do. 

Yes, I understand, but if the risk of being selective is that you are back to the usual suspects, is this really in tune with what USED to be the Mosaic policy (I am NOT refering to "Selects" here, of course).

[Brad]

Perhaps those days are gone, unfortunately. 

[Ed S]

There are a lot of McVea tracks on YouTube and having listened to a number of them, I see no reason they should not be included - and am disappointed that they are not.  I can see how the size of the set can be an impediment, but one could reasonably argue that 12 CDs is already too high a price point for many.  I wonder if they would consider a volume one and volume two approach. Seven or so CDs each and more inclusive.

 

Either way - I do enjoy these label oriented Mosaic sets a lot, so it won't stop me from purchasing this one.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Ed Swinnich

[jazzbo]

"Open the Door. . . "

[Ed S]

3 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

"Open the Door. . . "

Exactly!

[Ken Dryden]

7 hours ago, sidewinder said:

There comes a stage when you have to consider whether or not you will ever get through listening to 12 CDs of this stuff, even considering retirement listening time, taking into account the ‘to be opened’ pending pile building up.

Good that Mosaic are still gung-ho with releases though.

I have been retired almost four years and I agree that it is a challenge to catch up in my listening with all the new releases, reissues and purchases. But I'm still trying.

I don't think that I have that much music originally issued on Black & White, so I look forward to this boxed set.

[JSngry]

Blue Moon is a PD label that may or may not (stories differ) link back to Jodi Pudloh.

[sidewinder]

9 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

I have been retired almost four years and I agree that it is a challenge to catch up in my listening with all the new releases, reissues and purchases. But I'm still trying.

I don't think that I have that much music originally issued on Black & White, so I look forward to this boxed set.

Yeah, my comments aside, I’m almost certainly going to buy this one (eventually). 

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

According to Wiki, a Spanish label called Blue Moon (never heard of it) has released McVea's complete B&W recordings on four discs. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_McVea

Captain, personally I am not worried about Jack McVea myself - I have the essentials of his output from that period both on Jukebox Lil LPs and on one or the other of the Blue Moon reissues (which ARE a subsidiary of Fresh Sound but this is no drawback as - again - they go where hardly anbody else - the Chronological Classics series excepted - has ever bothered to tread, US reissue labels included, in particular). But I just find the swiping generalization of Jack McVea as "R&B" (and therefore - from their apparent point of view - implicitly and underhandedly "unworthy" of inclusion) to be rather dumb coming from a reissue label that sees itself as such a connoisseur label. Jack McVea may straddle the fence but does fit in BOTH camps - 40s small band swing AND 40s jump blues. And I do wonder about who else of the less obvious artists permanently overlooked in reissues they won't include in their attempt to make sure the the obvious candidates (and selling eyecatchers) ARE included. Ho hum ... 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Big Beat Steve

[Brad]

7 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

According to Wiki, a Spanish label called Blue Moon (never heard of it) has released McVea's complete B&W recordings on four discs. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_McVea

In their day they put out some good stuff that you couldn’t find except on LP. 

[mikeweil]

On 28.4.2019 at 6:11 AM, Captain Howdy said:

According to Wiki, a Spanish label called Blue Moon (never heard of it) has released McVea's complete B&W recordings on four discs. 

Vol. I & II are still available from Fresh Sound, the other two  (their website lists only Vol. 3 as out of print) may be found used.

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/11308-jack-mcvea-rabon-tarrant-albums

amazon has all four volumes at affordable prices.

Their contents can be found in the Tom Lord Disco, I count 36 Black & White sides. (If Lord lists it, it must be jazz enough.)

On 28.4.2019 at 10:08 AM, Captain Howdy said:

Steve, I, like you, would be interested in a box of B&W's R&B sides, but let's be realistic: Mosaic is a jazz label, not a R&B label, despite the superb boxes they devoted to T-Bone Walker, Amos Milburn, and Charles Brown long ago .

..... and Lightnin' Hopkins and Otis Spann from the Candid label. EMI started releasing a lot of their R & B catalogue from Capitol, Aladdin, Imperial and other labels under their control, so Mosaic may have been interested but could't get licenses. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by mikeweil

[bopmaster]

Jack McVea is valid as both a jazz artist and r&b, the two styles intersected closely by the mid to late 40’s and is well represented on lp and cd. The other black and white material is less-well represented and is mostly contained on some 5 or so horribly mastered  pickwick CDs and a Storyville twofer. Mosaic will have it’s hands full marketing and selling a black & white set of possibly up to 12 CDs so I think it was to right call to exclude the McVea material. The Marsala  material is the most to me as much of has the neglected trumpet player Joe Thomas and has never been reissued.

[jazztrain]

On 6/20/2020 at 9:53 AM, bopmaster said:

Jack McVea is valid as both a jazz artist and r&b, the two styles intersected closely by the mid to late 40’s and is well represented on lp and cd. The other black and white material is less-well represented and is mostly contained on some 5 or so horribly mastered  pickwick CDs and a Storyville twofer. Mosaic will have it’s hands full marketing and selling a black & white set of possibly up to 12 CDs so I think it was to right call to exclude the McVea material. The Marsala  material is the most to me as much of has the neglected trumpet player Joe Thomas and has never been reissued.

The only Joe Marsala Black & White session with Joe Thomas is the one from November 29, 1944.  The material from that session was reissued on Solid Sender (LP) and also on the following CD (which I thought you had):

Perhaps you're thinking of the Musicraft session from the following year?

That session, as well as the one mentioned above, are on the following CD:

Other trumpet players, like his brother Marty and Dizzy Gillespie, show up on the other Joe Marsala sessions on Black & White.

[Brad]

While talking to Scott about some other matters today, he said this set was coming out this year but he said as follows:

“You might also want to ask if people have any source material for the Black & White sessions since we are taking them all from 78s and I still have some wants. People can contact me via my email if they would like a list of what I need.”

So if anyone can help, please contact him. His email is scott@mosaicrecords.com

[Dub Modal]

I have to assume they've got everything relevant listed at this link: https://archive.org/details/audio?sin=&and%5B%5D=black+and+white&and%5B%5D=subject%3A%22music%22&sort=&page=2

If you scroll down there's a good amount of B&W 78s, etc. listed and downloadable in several different file types. 

[BeBop]

I'm not within reach of my 78s, but wasn't one of the Black and Whites issued under Leonard Feather's name?  I don't see on the Wikipedia page, so probably just my failing memory,  Spirits of Rhythm?