Blue Note's TONE POET series.

[porcy62]

Does anybody compare these pressings with Japanese vinyl reissues? Most of them are out there for less then 20 bucks, in nm conditions usually.

[sidewinder]

Very good point - Failing having an original, a King pressing would usually be my immediate first port of call. Many of the Toshibas are pretty nifty as well. Don’t recall any reports of wow and flutter with these either !

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I like the King reissues but I don't generally pay the extra money for a Toshiba cut. I'd rather a 70's era Van Gelder from UA for the same money.

I am actually thinking about buying a King LP of "Soul Station" just to hear it but the Music Matters LP sounds pretty phenomenal and the XRCD is great. How many different versions does one need?

[porcy62]

 I go that route usually with hard to find records. And as Tanno San back in the days , Japanese sellers are  flawless.

Edited August 30, 2019 by porcy62

[sidewinder]

Mr Tanno..... a Legend. Most of my Kings and Toshibas were supplied by him and as you say - invariably flawless. A condition downgrade from Tanno San usually meant no OBI at worst. 

[porcy62]

25 minutes ago, bresna said:

I like the King reissues but I don't generally pay the extra money for a Toshiba cut. I'd rather a 70's era Van Gelder from UA for the same money.

I am actually thinking about buying a King LP of "Soul Station" just to hear it but the Music Matters LP sounds pretty phenomenal and the XRCD is great. How many different versions does one need?

From this part of the ocean japanese and liberty pressings cost usually the same 🙂

About the dupe I sold, with some profit, all my 45 Music Matters (and cds, with no profit at all) when I had an original or a record included in a Mosaic box set.

Edited August 30, 2019 by porcy62

[porcy62]

16 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Mr Tanno..... a Legend. Most of my Kings and Toshibas were supplied by him and as you say - invariably flawless. A condition downgrade from Tanno San usually meant no OBI at worst. 

Yeah, I even bought some original pressings from him.

[sidewinder]

2 minutes ago, porcy62 said:

Yeah, I even bought some original pressings from him.

 (jealous)

[porcy62]

BTW I still play the wrong Kind of Blue mono pressing more often then the correct one on Mosaic, as someone said if it was good for Miles...

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

YOU GUYS ALL KNOW DON WAS IS RUNNING BN FROM THE BACK OF BOB WEIR'S TOUR BUS, RIGHT

[Brad]

41 minutes ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

YOU GUYS ALL KNOW DON WAS IS RUNNING BN FROM THE BACK OF BOB WEIR'S TOUR BUS, RIGHT

We can only hope that’s the case. 

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

Previous BN pres- credits: Columbia/CBS records jazz exec  in the day and then started the 80s  Elektra/Musican jazz label

Current BN pres- credits: produced Love Shack, tours with Bobby

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

All-purpose, that one is!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Regarding Lee Morgan's "Cornbread" - I've listened to Side 2 of both the 70's era UA Van Gelder and the new Tone Poet and while the new cut is indeed more dynamic, particularly with respect to the bass, that's really about it. There is a little weirdness on the piano intro to Ceora but it's slightly there on the original RVG pressing too.

So if you don't have this on LP and want it on LP, this Tone Poet LP is an excellent way to get it. But if you have it, you might be able to pass and save a few bucks.

Edited December 9, 2019 by bresna

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

very interesting bresna- thanks for your review

[Kevin Bresnahan]

On 9/1/2019 at 3:44 PM, bresna said:

I've listened to Side 2 of both the 70's era UA Van Gelder and the new Tone Poet and while the new cut is indeed more dynamic, particularly with respect to the bass, that's really about it. There is a little weirdness on the piano intro to Ceora but it's slightly there on the original RVG pressing too.

So if you don't have this on LP and want it on LP, this Tone Poet LP is an excellent way to get it. But if you have it, you might be able to pass and save a few bucks.

Regarding the feeling of more bass, Joe Harley did an interview with the Jazz Arkiv: https://arkivjazz.com/exclusive-interview-joe-harley. In it, he says, "He (RVG) would roll off the extreme low end. By that, I mean he would reduce frequencies from 30 Hz up to maybe 80 Hz, and then he put a bump in around 90 Hz or 100 Hz. So, what you hear on those records is a sense of bass. You think you're hearing bass notes and you are to a degree, but you're not hearing full low-end extension".

So basically, Harley & Kevin Gray are cutting these for modern turntables that can handle more bass extension so they sound fuller. These new LPs do show this but as he says, RVG knew how to get a feeling of bass, just not to the level that was on the master. Consequently, some listeners who are used to their originals may find that these new LPs have too much bass.

[JSngry]

17 minutes ago, bresna said:

Regarding the feeling of more bass, Joe Harley did an interview with the Jazz Arkiv: https://arkivjazz.com/exclusive-interview-joe-harley. In it, he says, "He (RVG) would roll off the extreme low end. By that, I mean he would reduce frequencies from 30 Hz up to maybe 80 Hz, and then he put a bump in around 90 Hz or 100 Hz. So, what you hear on those records is a sense of bass. You think you're hearing bass notes and you are to a degree, but you're not hearing full low-end extension".

So basically, Harley & Kevin Gray are cutting these for modern turntables that can handle more bass extension so they sound fuller. These new LPs do show this but as he says, RVG knew how to get a feeling of bass, just not to the level that was on the master. Consequently, some listeners who are used to their originals may find that these new LPs have too much bass.

Are they turning them into CTI records? Rudy did those too!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Are they turning them into CTI records? Rudy did those too!

I don't know what Rudy did when he cut those CTI records but they don't sound like Blue Note LPs. There's also the unfortunate fact that original CTI pressings seem to be cheaply pressed. I've gotten many mint originals that are noisy as heck.

[JSngry]

I was just kidding about turning BNs into CTIs. What Rudy did for CTI was use a direct input for the bass. Creed Taylor was making audio crack, I tell you. I lost track of how many stereo stores and record stores used those things to sell whatever they were selling. Ron Carter should have worked on commission!

I do remember using a copy of The Gigolo to audition speakers back in the day. The salesmen were like, what do you want to use this record for, it sounds old and puny. I told him, no, I know what a band sounds like when I'm in the middle of it, and I know that this record was recorded to present that and it does it better than most, so let's just see how your shit does with that. He was not happy about that and kept tweaking the EQ to make it sound more "modern" and he just kept fucking it up. No commission for him, or for several others who took the same tact, salespeople first, informed listeners second (if at all!).

Finally found a shop who got it, got that I was looking for a system that played back the record however it was recorded, and they ended up getting my business. The one time in my life I bought a serious hi-fi gear-set. Had it for a year or two, then it got stolen. Oh well.

OTOH, I bought that Jim Hall Concerto record cold because the record store I walked into knew how to sell audio crack, and hey, I got no pride about it, I bought that rock just like everybody else. But that was with younger ears.

[sidewinder]

4 hours ago, bresna said:

I don't know what Rudy did when he cut those CTI records but they don't sound like Blue Note LPs. There's also the unfortunate fact that original CTI pressings seem to be cheaply pressed. I've gotten many mint originals that are noisy as heck.

That is true - CTI is one label where I usually go for CD instead of vinyl where I can. Horrible sudden roll-off at both ends of the spectrum, boomy bass, rubbish quality vinyl (both US and UK pressings) in my experience.

[Ted O'Reilly]

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

I was just kidding about turning BNs into CTIs. What Rudy did for CTI was use a direct input for the bass. Creed Taylor was making audio crack, I tell you. I lost track of how many stereo stores and record stores used those things to sell whatever they were selling. Ron Carter should have worked on commission!

I do remember using a copy of The Gigolo to audition speakers back in the day.

My test record was Vic Dickenson Septet, on Vanguard.  Lovely natural sound, even today, though I think my 78 year old ears have finally caught up with 78 RPM sound.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

14 hours ago, sidewinder said:

That is true - CTI is one label where I usually go for CD instead of vinyl where I can. Horrible sudden roll-off at both ends of the spectrum, boomy bass, rubbish quality vinyl (both US and UK pressings) in my experience.

 

 

do you know the definition, of "greatest difference in the world", eg- the largest amount of distance in the world between the to things being talked about------------------------

 

 

with:

 

 

 

 

 

when you A/B them its not even close

 

 

this is prob one of the very best sounding cds- they must of took vangelders tapes which werent that old in first place for this stuff and must of flat transfered them or near-that, the differnece is night & day

its sounds too good to be a lp cutting master dub, but you never know.  But the sound is top notch, I tell you what

[sidewinder]

There seems to be some speculation on the Hoffman Forum that Kevin Gray’s tape machine might be out of alignment, or something of that ilk.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

5 hours ago, sidewinder said:

There seems to be some speculation on the Hoffman Forum that Kevin Gray’s tape machine might be out of alignment, or something of that ilk.

Oh boy, that's gotta get scrubbed out of there... I can't see any way that Steve Hoffman leaves that up there.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

So Kevin Gray replied to a Hoffman forum member about the possibility of warbling during tape playback:

“Scotch (3M) 111 was the very first U.S. recording tape formulation produced in quantity in the U.S. It was released in 1948 and was about all there was in the U.S. until 1964. About 90 percent of the recordings I master from that period are recorded on 111. All the RVG Blue Notes from that period are on 111. It is a red/orange iron oxide basically glued to clear acetate. It bears no resemblance to modern tape.

“Acetate is very unstable over time. It becomes extremely brittle. You can pull on it slightly and it breaks. This tape never wound totally smooth on the reel, but that has also gotten much much worse over time.

“The biggest problem occurs when the tape was wound off at high speed, as opposed to being played though. This might occur when a tape was perhaps wound to the head to copy one song. Then the rest of the tape is wound off in “Fast Forward”. The result is that the tape cinches slightly and if left that way develops a permanent curl or ruffle. This is very common on 111. Once this has happened the tape does not wrap smoothly over the playback head and tends to wander slightly. This is clearly visible as the video shows. Another problem is that NONE of the recorders from the 50s and early 60s had constant tape tension, which all modern tape recorders have. The tension would be higher at the end of the reel than the beginning. This also took a toll on tape.

“The 2nd generation 3M tape was Scotch 201. Although the oxide changed (dark brown), the base was still acetate, and the same problems exist. Around 1965, 202 was released, which was on modern mylar/polyester. But RVG used both 111 and 201 for several more years.

“So the tape wandering over the heads as opposed to staying flat does introduce speed anomalies. How could it not? And it isn’t consistent from tape to tape. Some wind smoother than others. Fast winding, as mentioned before, things like temperature and humidity in storage, and age have taken a toll.

“There are other factors effecting speed, such as sticking splices. The adhesive in the splicing tape oozes with age. It can’t be cleaned off very effectively because of the brittleness of the tape.”