Blue Note's TONE POET series.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

20 hours ago, jazzbo said:

I think he is saying that there is no real tested way of transferring to digital that would cause distortion in the sound of the saxophone alone. If distortion were caused by a transfer the sonic character of the distortion would be more than one instrument specific.

But that's not true, is it? If the saxophone is the loudest sound at a particular point in the music and the recording levels are set too high, even in the digital domain, the sax sound will distort. I have a Denon audio CD recorder and have made several needle drops over the years. To be honest, I've found it much harder to set the recording levels using that digital recorder and when the levels are set too high, the distortion is different from what you hear with analog recordings. Digital clipping is nothing like analog clipping. It's like a popping or clicking sound.

I suppose I could sit down this weekend and do a needle drop of the new Cohearant Records LP, "Shapes and Sound" by Kirsten Edkins and make two passes at it. One with the levels set properly and another with the set too high and post some samples of each for us to compare. I do want to needle drop this as Kevin Gray has not said if this record will ever come out on CD.

Edited February 23, 2023 by bresna

[jazzbo]

With my limited experience I would tend to agree with him as far as just the sound of one instrument distorting as a result of a transfer. But my experience is limited to mixing and transferring 4 track tape into a cdr format. The flip side of that is that it introduces the possibility that the saxophone distorted into the mike or tape at the session at that one point.

Edited February 22, 2023 by jazzbo

[Kevin Bresnahan]

48 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

With my limited experience I would tend to agree with him as far as just the sound of one instrument distorting as a result of a transfer. But my experience is limited to mixing and transferring 4 track tape into a cdr format. The flip side of that is that it introduces the possibility that the saxophone distorted into the mike or tape at the session at that one point.

But in the distortion that I heard on the "Passing Ships" track "Plantation Bag", the whole audio distorted, not just the saxophone. In fact, the distortion almost sounded like a loud skip in the record or a loud burst of audio noise. It didn't sound like the saxophone was distorted. It sounded like everything was distorted for just a few milliseconds.

And again, if this distortion is "on the tape" as Dean claims, how are you able to play that record back without hearing it? There is no way to adjust away distortion on the tape used to cut a record. It's either there or it isn't. Since you can play that record back without hearing any distortion, it's not there.

How about this analogy...

Let's say you take a picture, but you screwed up when you snapped it. It was distorted:

So now you print that picture onto a piece of paper and look at it. "Aw crap, it's out of focus," you think. But wait, I can look at it through a special filter. Nope. Still out of focus. Maybe if I change the lighting? Nope. Still out of focus.

There is nothing you can do while viewing this print of an out of focus picture to make it look like it is in focus because it's distorted on the "master" copy of this picture.

Edited February 22, 2023 by bresna

[jazzbo]

Kevin I have no dog in this hunt, and I don't/can't hear the distortion. It is HE who said that there's no way to transfer and cause distortion on that one instrument's sound alone. And I agree with him there, that is in line with my experience mixing and transferring analog tape to the digital realm. I know that if the distortion were only on the saxophone it may have come from a mic overload if that instrument were recorded alone on a mic. 

Your claim that the distortion is more than just on the saxophone may well be correct, I neither said that the distortion WAS only on the saxophone, nor have I heard the distortion playing the record. 

So . . .I'm out. I was just trying to interpret his statement as you asked for that assistance. I don't claim to be right in any way or to have any answers. I'm not trying to argue with you or make an argument.

Edited February 22, 2023 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

This session was recorded on, what, 4 tracks?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I've been told that Van Gelder had an 8-track analog setup then.

[JSngry]

So the tnor in question was not likely isolatd during the original recording, right? Or was it maybe fairly isolated by baffles?

I mean, there's all sorts of digital trickery afoot and available these days, but yeah, if it's there it should always be there, I would think. not a now you hear it now you don't type thing.

[sidewinder]

I find it ironic that when the original ‘Passing Ships’ came out on Conn CD, the general reaction was that folks were happy that it existed and was out there, warts and all (which to my recollection were largely to do with lack of rehearsal and some section sloppiness). This Tone Poet vinyl issue has resulted in myriad BS reports from people expecting perfection, where none ever existed. Total b*lls !

Edited February 22, 2023 by sidewinder

[JSngry]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:30 PM, sidewinder said:

I find it ironic that when the original ‘Passing Ships’ came out on Conn CD, the general reaction was that folks were happy that it existed and was out there, warts and all (which to my recollection were largely to do with lack of rehearsal and some section sloppiness). This Tone Poet vinyl issue has resulted in myriad BS reports from people expecting perfection, where none ever existed. Total b*lls !

Yep. One more way in which my confidence that people know "what" it is to which they are "listening" falters more or less daily.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

On 2/22/2023 at 3:30 PM, sidewinder said:

I find it ironic that when the original ‘Passing Ships’ came out on Conn CD, the general reaction was that folks were happy that it existed and was out there, warts and all (which to my recollection were largely to do with lack of rehearsal and some section sloppiness). This Tone Poet vinyl issue has resulted in myriad BS reports from people expecting perfection, where none ever existed. Total b*lls !

Where are you reading about people complaining about the music on the Tone Poet LP? I've only read about people complaining about the couple of spots of distortion during playback on the track "Plantation Bag". That was my only complaint. The music was fine. Not my favorite Hill date for sure, but still well worth releasing.

[sidewinder]

53 minutes ago, bresna said:

Where are you reading about people complaining about the music on the Tone Poet LP? I've only read about people complaining about the couple of spots of distortion during playback on the track "Plantation Bag". That was my only complaint. The music was fine. Not my favorite Hill date for sure, but still well worth releasing.

What I’m getting at is that people should be just glad that it is out there - CD or LP - and stop pontificating on the minutiae of distortion and pressing issues. That thread is full of it. 

[Eric]

37 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

What I’m getting at is that people should be just glad that it is out there - CD or LP - and stop pontificating on the minutiae of distortion and pressing issues. That thread is full of it. 

Yeah I find the thread somewhat amusing and somewhat depressing.  We have an embarrassment of riches, both digitally and on vinyl.

Just now, Eric said:

Yeah I find the thread somewhat amusing and somewhat depressing.  We have an embarrassment of riches, both digitally and on vinyl.

 

[sidewinder]

On the plus side, that thread does have some top tips on cycling and dog rearing !

Edited February 25, 2023 by sidewinder

[Brad]

54 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

What I’m getting at is that people should be just glad that it is out there - CD or LP - and stop pontificating on the minutiae of distortion and pressing issues. That thread is full of it. 

I find that very few of them talk about the music or if they do their comments aren’t very deep not to mention that it seems that most of them only listen to BN and nothing else. 

[sidewinder]

I could make a few comments about that place being a centre for ‘collective fan-boy self abuse’ but I won’t.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, sidewinder said:

What I’m getting at is that people should be just glad that it is out there - CD or LP - and stop pontificating on the minutiae of distortion and pressing issues. That thread is full of it. 

Maybe I'm missing your point but I'll try not to be a jerk about it...

I have been one of the ones complaining about the distortion on that thread because there are several posters... some being real assholes about it... that keep claiming that the distortion is not due to the record being cut too hot and that my playback problems are due to my setup. My setup is not the problem. The cut is too hot.

And I must add that the distortion on my turntables made the track "Plantation Bag" un-enjoyable to listen to so I gave it to Lon. That's how bad it was. The sax & piano broke up loudly and really intruded into the music presentation. I don't know how anyone would want to listen to this again.

FWIW, if people would stop saying "It's your setup" on that thread, I would stop politely telling them they are wrong. I'd love to tell them they are full of shit, but I can't over there.

So it's simple - they stop telling those of us who can't play that record without distortion that our setup is the problem and we'll stop correcting their misguided statements.

But even simpler would be for Blue Note to actually admit it was cut too hot and end this debate. When they came out and said, "We don't hear it". it opened the door to this. If they had simply said, "Yeah, it appears we cut this too hot for some cartridges", I don't think we'd be having this seemingly endless argument over there. Most of us would read their statement and move on.

Sure, there would be some calls for a re-cut (and I do believe that it should've already happened) but at least the personal sniping about how inept we are at setting up our turntables would stop.

[sidewinder]

Fair enough, point understood - that sort of thing certainly shouldn’t be happening, especially considering the premium-end nature of the series.

Edited February 25, 2023 by sidewinder

[Kevin Bresnahan]

29 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Fair enough, point understood - that sort of thing certainly shouldn’t be happening, especially considering the premium-end nature of the series.

What bugs me the most is that one of the posters who does this frequently, who posts under the moniker "Josquin des Prez", did it recently:

[QUOTE="Josquin des Prez, post: 31496586, member: 30945"]Yeah, you might have your TT setup wrong. Most people get it basically right, but settle on it too quickly since that works for most things. However, that may not work well for corner cases, like records with greater than average tracking challenges.

PoH is one of them, for example. If you listen to large-scale orchestral classical works getting setup fine-tuned and correct is critical. There are some Mahler brass choirs playing fortissimo that are not unlike those sections on PoH where Chet pushes the mic.

I'm not in denial about it. Joe and Kevin have addressed the concerns, and Blue Note published a statement about. Ignore or deny it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that PoH does not have a mastering issue.[/QUOTE]

I quoted this post and said that it was rather rude to say that and my post quoting this was deleted, not his. On top of that, I clicked the "Report" button on that post and it is still there.

It's sad that a forum that claims to be full of  audiophiles allows certain posters to say shit like this about other poster's abilities/setups and get a pass. If I did that, they'd kick me off. It's the favoritism over there that really sucks.

[sidewinder]

Shame - people with blinkers on there unable to tolerate anything other than their own ‘truth’.

[Pim]

Haha yeah the whole thing with Picture of Heath made me laugh out very loudly. People seriously defending Blue Note telling hundreds of people their setup is wrong and they should adjust it for this very record…. Mine skipped too and I sent it back immediately. No way I am paying 50 euros for a record like that. No need for a replacement too. I will get the Art Pepper Mosaic box instead. 
 

There are some very nice folks on the Hoffman Board. The audiophiles are not among them. They are of course listening music for other purposes than the music itself. That’s why they only listen to music that’s produced in new reissue lines. And then they mostly stick to Blue Note records indeed. It’s sad and they don’t know what they’re missing. They compulsively buy every Tone Poet and say about even very average records that they are like the best they ever heard. 
 

I can’t believe people really listen to music that way. 

[porcy62]

I am not really impressed about it, just read the reviews on Amazon about the literature’s masterpieces and you got the average level of internet’s posts. Paraphrasing the apocryphal Warhol every idiot has fifteen minutes of fame on internet.

[JSngry]

6 hours ago, Pim said:

I can’t believe people really listen to music that way. 

Are they listening to music, or are they interpreting data that they think represents what music sounds like? 

[Brad]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

Are they listening to music, or are they interpreting data that they think represents what music sounds like? 

The latter it seems. There are a few people who listen to the music and are knowledgeable but they seem to be in the minority. 

[Pim]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Are they listening to music, or are they interpreting data that they think represents what music sounds like? 

Exactly that Jim. Almost a scientific kind of approach to sound. Not a lot of feeling involved

[Dmitry]

Acoustic Sounds is running a palpable sale on vinyl, which includes the Blue Note Classic and the Tone Poet series.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&start=1 &saleid=677#