Gil Melle - Gil's Guests

[Tom 1960]

Ok, new to me. Not so I imagine to many of you fellas. Anyways, probably one of my nicer purchases recently. Scored this on Discogs for $12 and change and I am really enjoying hearing this. I guess one could classify this as cool school, correct me if I'm wrong? I don't own his Blue Note dates, so this was my initial landing point. I guess I should probably look into those recordings as well. That said, if you don't already own this, perhaps this might be something of interest? I imagine this will get numerous listens in the coming weeks. Very nice. Certainly a fine lineup for these sessions. August '56 and January '57. Please post your thoughts and impressions.

[mjzee]

I categorize Melle's music as simply "intelligent."  He had a good brain, and wrote things that probably no one else would have.  His work doesn't strike me as self-consciously "inventive," and his writing never screams out "look at me!"  But it's lively and...how can I put this?  There's just more music crammed in 8 bars than most other people's music.  Intelligent.  I like his work a lot (I have the Prestiges on mp3s and the Blue Note twofer).

[felser]

I love the albums on this one and the Blue Notes, amazing, underheralded stuff.

[Larry Kart]

 Interesting how Melle hooked up with two distinctive and somewhat related guitarists -- Cinderella and Lou Mecca.

[king ubu]

5 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

 Interesting how Melle hooked up with two distinctive and somewhat related guitarists -- Cinderella and Lou Mecca.

... they succeeded none less than Tal Farlow in his band, I think.

I'm not playing Mellé's sides very often, but I enjoy them whenever I do. I know his Blue Note material better than the two Prestige albums (plus CD bonus material with disputed personnel - link to previous discussion below) so far.

--

 

[Teasing the Korean]

I am familiar with Gil's film and TV work, but not any "jazz."  Unless Tome VI counts, but that strikes me more as a soundtrack for a film that doesn't exist.

[Joe]

Love his tribute to Herbie Nichols on this record.

I actually prefer his Prestige material to the Blue Notes -- feel like that's really when he came into his own as a composer. PRIMITIVE MODERN and QUADRAMA are both superb dates.

[felser]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I am familiar with Gil's film and TV work, but not any "jazz."  Unless Tome VI counts, but that strikes me more as a soundtrack for a film that doesn't exist.

This material is very very different from Tome VI.  I greatly prefer this.

[Larry Kart]

11 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

 Interesting how Melle hooked up with two distinctive and somewhat related guitarists -- Cinderella and Lou Mecca.

5 hours ago, king ubu said:

... they succeeded none less than Tal Farlow in his band, I think.

I'm not playing Mellé's sides very often, but I enjoy them whenever I do. I know his Blue Note material better than the two Prestige albums (plus CD bonus material with disputed personnel - link to previous discussion below) so far.

 

--

 

Some of Gil's lines are delightfully and/or insidiously memorable. For example, "Threadneedle Street" from the album with Don Butterfield. As for Tal -- he's a giant, but IMO both Cinderella and Mecca brought something to Gil's music that was more distinctive than what the pretty much fully formed Tal brought.

[JSngry]

My chronology with Melle was hearing him on Night Gallery first, then Andromeda Strain, then on Tome VI, and then, finally finding out that he "used to be" a "jazz guy". So it's been an adjustment of sorts for me to hear these jazz records of his in their actual chronological context.

I like Tome VI, not so much for the music as for the notion of "Jazz Electronauts" being something that didn't involve gimmicky clothes on the cover and stuff like that. It was an honest look at applying electronics to the music and then the music proceeding from that. It wasn't just the same thing only with goofy plugins.

 

[sgcim]

8 hours ago, king ubu said:

... they succeeded none less than Tal Farlow in his band, I think.

I'm not playing Mellé's sides very often, but I enjoy them whenever I do. I know his Blue Note material better than the two Prestige albums (plus CD bonus material with disputed personnel - link to previous discussion below) so far.

--

 

Tal could not sight read music at that period. Cinderella was a big studio musician in NY at that time, and could sight read very well, which was important for Melle's music.

Mecca could also read better than Tal. Mecca hasn't recorded much, but I've heard recordings where he sounded fine, and other recordings where he sounded not so fine.

[felser]

I've heard very little Mecca, but do like this one quite a bit:

[Teasing the Korean]

8 hours ago, felser said:

This material is very very different from Tome VI.  

I assumed so.  Thanks for the warning. 

[Teasing the Korean]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

My chronology with Melle was hearing him on Night Gallery first, then Andromeda Strain, then on Tome VI, and then, finally finding out that he "used to be" a "jazz guy". So it's been an adjustment of sorts for me to hear these jazz records of his in their actual chronological context.

This is basically my chronology also. 

[sgcim]

4 hours ago, felser said:

I've heard very little Mecca, but do like this one quite a bit:

He became a chiropractor, and completely dropped out of the scene. I remember putting him down to Larry K. here, but I heard him again recently on ATTYA, and enjoyed his playing a lot more than I had when I initially heard him years ago.

[Tom 1960]

13 hours ago, Joe said:

Love his tribute to Herbie Nichols on this record.

I actually prefer his Prestige material to the Blue Notes -- feel like that's really when he came into his own as a composer. PRIMITIVE MODERN and QUADRAMA are both superb dates.

I was also thinking about this release, but might wait for a better price than what is available presently on Amazon. 

[Rooster_Ties]

Two questions about the OJC CD reissue of Gil’s Guests (which I just got from Dusty last week, my first Gil Melle album).

1) From what original release (some 10” I’m guessing? - and when were they originally released?) do the 3 bonus tracks from 18-Jan-1957 come from? There’s nothing whatsoever about their origin in the liners

(Although there is a torn perforation in my booklet, presumably where you could mail in something for an OJC catalog or something — it wouldn’t have been on the back of that, would it? — my copy is missing that page.)

2) Also, I’m just noticing the line-up of those three bonus tracks as listed (in the liners) is quite different than the Wikipedia page for this album…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil's_Guests

Teddy Charles is clearly audible, but there are 2-3 other names that don’t match either — so what’s the correct personnel for this “bonus” session??

The liners say: Melle, Donald Byrd, Phil Woods, Joe Cinderella (guitar), Vinnie Burke (bass), and Edmund Thigpen (drums).

But the Wikipedia entry says: Melle, Woods (alto), Seldon Powell (tenor), Byrd (trumpet), Teddy Charles (vibes), George Duvivier (bass), and Shadow Wilson (drums)

This is my first ever Gil Melle purchase, which I’m quite enjoying — though as much for the varied instrumentation, and especially the 3 tracks with Teddy Charles, which are quite nice!!

Edited June 29, 2023 by Rooster_Ties

[Chuck Nessa]

Not sure where I got the information, but I have a note inside my cd indicating Art Farmer, Hal McKusick, Zoot Sims, Teddy Charles, Joe Cinderella, Vinnie Burke and Ed Thigpen.

[Rooster_Ties]

6 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Not sure where I got the information, but I have a note inside my cd indicating Art Farmer, Hal McKusick, Zoot Sims, Teddy Charles, Joe Cinderella, Vinnie Burke and Ed Thigpen.

Thx Chuck.  Looking at Discogs, this thing has been reissued on CD four (4) times total, throughout the world.

I just skimmed each CD entry on Discogs, and I think each and every one of them is slightly different!! 

https://www.discogs.com/master/404662-Gil-Melle-Quartet-Gils-Guests?format=CD

On my phone, and it would be tricky to try and detail all the differences.

 

And of course my other question remains, as to if these bonus tracks were previously unreleased prior to 1990 (and I have the standard 1990 US CD issue, fwiw) — and if so, where and when.

[mikeweil]

38 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

And of course my other question remains, as to if these bonus tracks were previously unreleased prior to 1990 (and I have the standard 1990 US CD issue, fwiw) — and if so, where and when.

The OJC CD was the first issue of these three tracks. 

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

The OJC CD was the first issue of these three tracks. 

Strange that (apparently?) they mangled the personnel listing.

Is there anything that confirms this is the first ever release of these tracks? — or is anything else known about them?

Wonder what Lord has (if anything).

Edited June 29, 2023 by Rooster_Ties

[Chuck Nessa]

This was the first issue of those tracks. The date was not included in the Ruppli Prestige book - published in 1980.

Who knows where Lord copies his info.

[romualdo]

Date: January 18, 1957
Location: Van Gelder Studio, Hackensack, NJ
Label: Prestige
Gil Melle Septet

Gil Melle (ldr), Art Farmer (t), Hal McKusick (as), unknown (ts), Gil Melle (bar), Teddy Charles (vib), Vinnie Burke (b), Ed Thigpen (d)

a.	1058	Funk for Star People(Gil Melle) / arr: Gil Melle - 6:37
b.	1059	Golden Age(Gil Melle) / arr: Gil Melle - 6:46
c.	1060	Herbie(Gil Melle) / arr: Gil Melle - 4:21

All titles on:

Prestige CDOJCCD-1753-2 — Gil's Guests   (1990) Prestige/Victor (Jpn.) CDVICJ 41385 — Gil's Guests   (2006) Fresh Sound (Sp.) CDFSR-CD 479_2 — The Complete Prestige Recordings (1956-1957)   (2008) Prestige (Eu.) CD00025218175326 — Gil's Guests   (2009) Universal (Jpn.) CDUCCO 5263 — Gil's Guests   (2014)

Solos:
a - unknown (ts); Art Farmer (t); Gil Melle (bar); Teddy Charles (vib)
b - Gil Melle (bar); Teddy Charles (vib); Hal McKusick (as)
c - Hal McKusick (as); Art Farmer (t); unknown (ts); Vinnie Burke (b)

These 3 tracks were never issued on the original LP, Prestige 7063 and apparently destined for an LP that was never completed. The personnel have generated much controversy. Here is an historical summary:
1. Donald Byrd (t), Phil Woods (as), Gil Melle (bar), Joe Cinderella (g), Vinnie Burke (b), Ed Thigpen (d)
This lineup appears first in:
(a) Jepsen's Jazz Records 1942-1962 (1963) and repeated in:
(b) Ruppli's Prestige Records Discography, 1972 and 1980 editions;
(c) Bruyninckx Discography, 1977 and 1987 editions;
(d) Liner notes to Prestige OJCCD-1753-2 (1990).
2. The Lord Discography (1996 print edition) shows: Art Farmer (t), Hal McKusick (as), poss. Seldon Powell (ts), Gil Melle (bar), Teddy Charles (vib), poss. George Duvivier (b), poss. Shadow Wilson (d).
3. Personnel provided by Gil Melle in a 1999 interview with Rudy Van Gelder historian Dan Skea: Art Farmer (t), Hal McKusick (as), Zoot Sims (ts), Gil Melle (bar), Teddy Charles (vib), Joe Cinderella (g), Vinnie Burke (b), Ed Thigpen (d). Melle was particularly emphatic about the presence of Sims and Charles and frustrated by their omission from the Original Jazz Classics CD liner notes.
4. Personnel in the Bruyninckx Discography, 2004 pdf edition - same as 2.
5. Personnel shown on Fresh Sound FSR-CD 479_2 (2008) and in the Lord Discography, current online version (2009): Art Farmer (t), Hal McKusick (as), Seldon Powell (ts), Gil Melle (bar), Teddy Charles (vib), George Duvivier (b), Shadow Wilson (d).

After being troubled by this session for years, I recently (August 2009) have revisited it in an attempt to definitively identify the participants. Unfortunately, that goal remains elusive. Nonetheless, here are some of my conclusions:
1. The early information, repeated on the 1990 CD reissue, is wrong. A vibraphone and tenor sax are clearly audible and the trumpeter and alto saxophonist are definitely NOT Byrd and Woods, respectively.
2. No guitar is audible on any of the tracks.
3. The musicians present beyond any doubt (aural evidence) are Farmer, McKusick, Melle and Charles.
4. Despite what Melle indicated in the 1999 interview, the tenor saxophonist is NOT Zoot Sims based on aural evidence (confirmed in a phone conversation and email exchange with Hal McKusick). It could very well be Seldon Powell but to me, that remains insufficiently substantiated and so I am listing the tenor sax player as unknown until I find compelling evidence for Powell or anyone else.
5. The bassist and drummer sound to me much more like Burke and Thigpen than Duvivier and Wilson, respectively. Hal McKusick's recollections of the session lean in the same direction.

from Noal Cohen's Teddy Charles Discography

https://attictoys.com/teddy-charles-discography/#sess-year_1957

[mikeweil]

romualdo bet me to it. 👍

[Rooster_Ties]

Thanks, romualdo!!  I had no idea this session had so much uncertainty about it.