ghost of miles Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) I’m rereading the original liner notes to McCoy Tyner’s Extensions in which he states, “There is a piano player in Philly who probably may never leave; however, his talents and directions had a great influence on my playing.” Hasaan Ibn Ali, perhaps? Can anybody else hazard a guess? Edited December 7, 2018 by ghost of miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 That would be my guess, although McCoy often also stated the early influence of Richie Powell, who in no way fits that description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, JSngry said: That would be my guess, although McCoy often also stated the early influence of Richie Powell, who in no way fits that description. and who was already deceased by that point. I also think it's probably Hasaan he is referring to. And I've lived in the Philly area since '72. Edited December 7, 2018 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 Cal Massey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 John Dennis? OTOH, Dennis died in 1963 at age 33, which makes McCoy's "who probably may never leave" sound strange because "Extensions" came out in 1973. Could McCoy somehow not have gotten the word on Dennis' death? Or did the liner note writer somehow get confused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said: Cal Massey? Massey was a trumpet player, though for a long time I also figured he must be a pianist from his writing. The guy who was the mysterious local legend who never left town was John Coates Jr., and it could have been him based on some later recordings I heard by him in the early-mid 70's. Not from his lone Savoy album, but that was from 1956 and he was only like 18 when he made it (btw one of the worst album covers imaginable, just for the suite alone). I hear a lot more of the mature Coates in Tyner than I do of John Dennis or Richie Powell. Edited December 8, 2018 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 he was?? oh dog i thought he was piano, he was trumpet? this is the SECOND thought i knew something about music but was wrong and it actually is something else--- the 1st....i learned the song "black betty" is actually not by Foghat-- but a band called: "ram jam"! actually theres 3 thinks which are blowing my mind today- the 3rd being not about music, but did you know that John Hinkley Sr, was a major financial contributor to Bush's 1980 campaign, and Neil Bush had a dinner date planned for march 31, the day after the shooting, with hinkleys older brother Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin V Posted December 9, 2018 Report Share Posted December 9, 2018 On 12/8/2018 at 10:08 PM, Larry Kart said: John Dennis? OTOH, Dennis died in 1963 at age 33, which makes McCoy's "who probably may never leave" sound strange because "Extensions" came out in 1973. Could McCoy somehow not have gotten the word on Dennis' death? Or did the liner note writer somehow get confused? Dang. I never knew that Dennis had left us at such a young age. That Debut album is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted December 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 On 12/8/2018 at 11:31 PM, felser said: Massey was a trumpet player, though for a long time I also figured he must be a pianist from his writing. The guy who was the mysterious local legend who never left town was John Coates Jr., and it could have been him based on some later recordings I heard by him in the early-mid 70's. Not from his lone Savoy album, but that was from 1956 and he was only like 18 when he made it (btw one of the worst album covers imaginable, just for the suite alone). I hear a lot more of the mature Coates in Tyner than I do of John Dennis or Richie Powell. Coates Jr. was also an early influence on Keith Jarrett. I'm still thinking Ibn Ali for my original query, especially after I came across a reference to him in a Tyner interview several days ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 46 minutes ago, ghost of miles said: Coates Jr. was also an early influence on Keith Jarrett. I'm still thinking Ibn Ali for my original query, especially after I came across a reference to him in a Tyner interview several days ago. Ibn Ali makes sense to me. I just don't see it being Dennis or Powell, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 Happy Birthday McCoy! 80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 (edited) On 12/7/2018 at 10:10 AM, JSngry said: That would be my guess, although McCoy often also stated the early influence of Richie Powell, who in no way fits that description. Maybe it is Richie Powell?? Happened to be looking at Richie Powell's Wikipedia entry this morning (I was barely aware of him, I'll confess (), and looked him up wondering who the piano-player was on Sonny Rollins Plus 4 that came up on my Pandora this morning while I was on the subway) -- and there's a couple good pieces of circumstantial evidence in Richie's Wiki: [Powell's] relatively heavy touch and use of left-hand fourths influenced fellow pianist McCoy Tyner. (unsourced) Pianist McCoy Tyner, who grew up close to the Powell brothers in Philadelphia,[41] was influenced by their relatively heavy keyboard touch and their liking of percussive piano sounds.[42] Tyner also got some of his inspiration for chord voicing from hearing Richie's use of left-hand fourths.[43][44] McCoy's Wikipedia page also has sources that confirm that both Powell brothers were "neighbors". There's a Hal Leonard sheet music book (Jazz Giants: McCoy Tyner), that's one source (footnote #43) -- anybody have a physical copy of this? Footnote #44 is a lot more obscure: "Music in the USA – A Documentary Companion. Oxford University Press. pp. 644–45." OK, HERE WE GO... You can "preview" the "Music in the USA" book via Google books, and see parts of a whole interview with McCoy HERE. Then click on the "page 643 >>" hotlink right above the small quote, and that'll let you see that whole page, and the next few pages". McCoy talks about various specific details of Richie Powell's influence. Page 645 (FYI, the google preview will only show pages 643 and 645, but not 644 - rats!): But thus sayeth McCoy (on page 645): "Another person is Richie Powell. He used the sustaining pedal sometimes when he was playing with Max, and I heard that sound. The voicing wasn't the same, but he would use the sustaining pedal sometimes to get a flowing type of thing, because he wasn't really that technically a proficient kind of player. And then Bill [Evans] came along..." There's also a brief mention of Richie on page 643, but it's more of a fleeting mention (that McCoy heard him with Max and Sonny, and that McCoy had played with Sonny too, back when he (McCoy) was 18). AND, then from this -- CLICK HERE -- Richie Powell was buried just outside of Philly, barely 5 miles north of the city limits (in an all African American cemetery). And let's remember McCoy's quote that kicked off this whole thread: There is a piano player in Philly who probably may never leave; however, his talents and directions had a great influence on my playing.” "In Philly" (McCoy said this in 1973) "who PROBABLY MAY NEVER LEAVE". That "probably may" is a weird construction, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was refereeing to someone to who was deceased (and buried in -- or just outside -- Philly). There's your answer. Put two points on the board for the Rooster. Edited December 18, 2018 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 That's really interesting. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon8 Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 Another recent perspective on Tyner's influences: https://ethaniverson.com/mccoy-tyners-revolution/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Simon8 said: Another recent perspective on Tyner's influences: https://ethaniverson.com/mccoy-tyners-revolution/ Great find!! Which also mentions Richie several times... Harold Mabern gives Bud’s brother Richie Powell credit for the bitonal piano intro on the Clifford Brown/Max Roach “Delilah,” saying it was a source for McCoy Tyner’s harmonic innovations. Tyner himself name-checks the younger Powell in an early interview for his “sustaining chords.” And then this is much farther down in Ethan's post, from a Downbeat interview with McCoy in 1963 (there's WAY more of it in the above link, but here's the parts that reference Richie/Richard): I was mainly influenced by records at that time, because there wasn’t too much jazz on the radio. Bud Powell and his brother were living just around the corner from me in Philadelphia, but they didn’t have a piano in their apartment, and Bud came to my mother’s house to play. I wasn’t familiar with his work and didn’t know who he was. It was hard to understand everything he was doing, but I liked it. Judging from the records he made with Max Roach and Ray Brown, I think he had reached his prime then, and I learned quite a lot from him and his brother Richard. THEY [emphasis added by RT] were profound musicians, harmonically and in many other ways. Bud had so much taste and creative ability that I couldn’t help learning from him. You are exposed to so much music today that you cannot always pinpoint influences. I know that when I used to listen to Max Roach’s band I was impressed by the harmonies Richard Powell used to play and by his use of the sustaining pedal on chords. In fact, one of the strong points of his playing was his beautiful harmonic conception. I never copied what he did, but I certainly appreciated it. I may find myself playing a phrase from another musician, but I never consciously copy, Guys ask me sometimes how I do this or do that, but I don’t have any preconceived formula. You can almost subconsciously acquire technical devices, of course, like Richard Powell’s way of sustaining chords. I think another musician can show you the way, maybe inspire you, but I’ve never wanted to be an exact copy of anyone else. I’m [only!] 24, and I guess I’m still evolving. You can’t rush maturity. —MCCOY TYNER AS TOLD TO STANLEY DANCE IN 1963 So that's like 4 specific references to Richie in this interview with McCoy in '63 -- which is quite a fair number. Edited December 18, 2018 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 Also note - on a completely unrelated note - that it was Stanley Dance who gave McCoy his first print interview. This was something he would often point out himself when charged with being totally deaf to anything past Swing-based music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 8 hours ago, JSngry said: Also note - on a completely unrelated note... I'll see your unrelated note, and raise you an equally and possibly even MORE unrelated note... ...from McCoy's Wikipedia bio... McCoy Tyner is the older brother of Jarvis Tyner, executive vice chairman of the Communist Party USA.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarvis_Tyner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomageToDonByas Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Two years have passed since the previous post, and this morning Omnivore Records announced that on March 5, 2021 it will be issuing the long-lost Hasaan Ibn Ali quartet sessions. Perhaps not so coincidentally, one of Hasaan's compositions on the new release is entitled "Richard May Love Give Powell." This may not answer the question of the identity of the Philadelphia pianist McCoy Tyner had in mind, but it provides some interesting resonance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) On 12/8/2018 at 10:08 PM, Larry Kart said: John Dennis? OTOH, Dennis died in 1963 at age 33, which makes McCoy's "who probably may never leave" sound strange because "Extensions" came out in 1973. Could McCoy somehow not have gotten the word on Dennis' death? Or did the liner note writer somehow get confused? Seeing this McCoy quote mystery thread again, I’m not remembering ever having seen this post about John Dennis — a name I’m also not recalling in the slightest... and a quick google search of course leads back to an Organissimo thread. NOT the first time that’s ever happened too, btw — me googling a number of obscure jazz artist names, only to discovering one of the top 10 or even too 5(!) search hits is an Organissimo thread! Edited December 15, 2020 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyhersom Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 From an interview with Walt Dickerson, Link: http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2007/06/in-full-1-walt-dickerson.html HS: You’ve said that two of your biggest influences were “The Two Johns,” Dennis and Coltrane. Can you tell me about your relationships with them? WD: Well we came up in the same era, the same vicinity. We shared thoughts about life, which cannot be separated from our musical projections. What you hear in the musical projections are really our view and study of life, and we had tremendous interchange. The interchange was heaviest between John Dennis and myself; we were inseparable coming up, like the inseparable twins as such. He was allowed to create when he came to our house; he could not create the music that he desired to create in his house because of the restrictions leveled by his, quote [finger quotes], “religious” parents. My parents were religious also, but they loved music. My mother was a pianist; my father sang in a choir. And my mother always encouraged John and myself, and he would play for her and she enjoyed it tremendously. John also had a photographic mind, very capable of also doing three things simultaneously. As so often happens in America, his genius did not yield the fruits that it should have. Another Walt Dickerson interview mentioning John Dennis http://web.archive.org/web/20030110092757/www.onefinalnote.com/issue9/features/dickerson.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin V Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Larry mentioned Dennis passing away in 1963. Do we have more information about his final years? Although I once asked Jimmy Heath about both Dennis and Ali, he only talked about Ali. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 That one John Dennis trio album with Mingus and Max is his only leader-date (clearly), but what is the original source of the 4(?) lovely solo piano tracks tacked on the end of the OJC reissue (the one on CD) - ?? I’m not seeing any obvious previous release with them on Discogs (i.e. were they “previously unreleased” at the time of that OJC disc release?) (I don’t have that Dennis CD yet, but plan to track one down soon - I’m sure the liners cover it, if someone could indulge me? - thank you!). I’m seeing he was a sideman on a handful of other dates, but am I right in assuming none of them show off his contrapuntal dexterity anywhere near as well as most of the things on that OJC disc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) Those solo piano pieces first appeared on cd in the Charles Mingus Complete Debut Recordings box set, as well as I believe two alternates to the Trio session. I believe this was an unreleased incomplete LP session, but I am likely wrong. Edited December 19, 2020 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Bruyninckx says Debut 121 included 4 trio tracks (Ensenada, Machajo, Cherokee and Seven Moons) and the 4 solo tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 3 hours ago, jazzbo said: Those solo piano pieces first appeared in the Charles Mingus Complete Debut Recordings box set, as well as I believe two alternates to the Trio session. I believe this was an unreleased incomplete LP session. The Mingus Debut box omitted the solo tracks (as Mingus is not heard on them), had just the four trio tracks, but included two alternates and one previously unissued track plus an alternate. This and the Thad Jones session made the same day with the Dennis/Mingus/Roach trio seem to be the pianist's only recordings. New Piano Expressions : John Dennis Trio : John Dennis (p) Charles Mingus (b) Max Roach (d) Hackensack, N.J., March 10, 1955 Ensenada Debut DEB121, 12-DCD-4402-2 [CD] Machajo - - Cherokee - - Cherokee (alt take) - Seven moons - - Seven moons (alt take) - All the things you are (take 1) - All the things you are (take 2) - Odyssey (p-solo) Debut DEB121 Chartreuse (p-solo) - Variegations (p-solo) - Someone to watch over me (p-solo) - Jazz Collaborations : Thad Jones Quartet : Thad Jones (tp) John Dennis (p) Charles Mingus (b) Max Roach (d) Hackensack, N.J., March 10, 1955 One more (alt take) Debut 12DCD-4402-2 [CD] One more Debut DEB127, (Dan)DEP25, Debut 12DCD-4402-2 [CD], Musica Jazz (It)MJCD1236 [CD] One more (edited) (*) Debut DLP17, Prestige PCD-2301-2 [CD] I can't get started DLP17, DEB127, (Dan)DEP25, Debut 12DCD-4402-2 [CD] More of the same Debut DLP17, DEB127, (Dan)DEP26, Debut 12DCD-4402-2 [CD] Get out of town (alt take) Debut DEB127, 12DCD-4402-2 [CD] Get out of town Debut DLP17, (Dan)DEP26, Debut 12DCD-4402-2 [CD] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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