OJC Vinyl

[street singer]

I'm looking for some opinions on the OJC vinyl reissues. The recent thread on Fantasy being up for sale really got my attention, and as I was perusing through their catalog I noticed the large amount of vinyl still available from them. I just ordered a few of these yesterday and am ready to pick up a great many more...but, I seem to recall some negative opinions some people had about these reissues. Seems that there was some controversy regarding the possibility of digital source material for some of these - any truth to that? If so, have the ones that were mastered from digital sources been identified?

Most importantly, though: In general, how do these things sound? Are they better sounding than their standard OJC CD counterparts? How do they compare to the newer K2 remastered CDs?

Like I said, I'm ready to put down some change for quite a few of these, and since I value the opinions of all of you here so much, I figured I'd check here first before venturing out into "the wild" (ie: Audio Asylum, et al).

Many thanks!

[Claude]

I can only speak about the german pressings, made by Mikulsky/ZYX. I bought a dozen of them at Zweitausendeins (5 Euro/LP).

The german OJC LPs are made from the same digital tapes as the CDs, so it's the late 80's remastering by Phil De Lancie at Fantasy Studios.

The best LPs sound ok, but not better than the CDs made from the same tapes, and the worst sound awfullly thin and flat. The pressing quality is very good.

So clearly the german OJCs are not for audiophiles.

[JohnS]

I have several of the early US OJC pressings manufactured before the onset of cds. These sound fine to me and the pressing quality is good. That said I've not done any A-B comparisons with the equivalent cds.

[Harold_Z]

I always thought that the OJC vinyl and the cds were made from the same digital source. IOW a digital master from which a vinyl master is made . Thus the end result was subject to the same noise reduction, etc as the cd.

I don't necessarily think this is bad. It depends on the finished product..and for me in most cases the finished product was fine.

[Sahara Blue Orchestra]

Not overly impressive. A Jimmy Heath "Nice People" record comes to mind.

[street singer]

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

So, the general opinon of those who have responded seems to be that these are "alright", at best. Nothing spectacular. However, the same could be said about the majority of OJC CD's. So...

Do you see any reason to buy these over the CD's? Granted, they are a few bucks cheaper...and you get the full size cover artwork (ofcourse, with a lot of these covers, that's not necessarily a good thing). However, if you're going to buy a record that's mastered from a digital source...well, that kind of defeats the purpose of acquiring the music on vinyl, don't you think?

Then again... I sure do like watching those shiny black discs spin around and around.

Anyone else here have an opinon of these? Still would like to hear how these compare to the K2 remasters.

Edited March 10, 2004 by street singer

[Dmitry]

Vinyl is on the light side, sometimes slightly warped and noisy, but after a round on a rcm it sounds fine. They sound much better if you use a record clamp.

If had for $5 they are unbeatable in terms of sound vs. the cds.

[street singer]

Vinyl is on the light side, sometimes slightly warped and noisy, but after a round on a rcm it sounds fine. They sound much better if you use a record clamp.

If had for $5 they are unbeatable in terms of sound vs. the cds.

"RCM"?

Please explain.

Obviously, I'm fairly new to the world of vinyl...

[Claude]

Record cleaning machine ?

As far as the Mikulski/ZYX OJC LPs go, the pressings are very good and the vinyl thicker that normal LPs (must be something like 150g). Of course this doesn't help if the tapes have been poorly remastered.

[Harold_Z]

In other words - if they are coming from the same source then the relative quality of either will depend on your playback equipment. Most likely your cd player offers better playback than your turntable. Usually a cheap cd player will out perform a cheap turntable. For my money, add to that the fact that the vinyl is more subject to wear, accidents, etc and given the same source I'll prefer the cd.

[shrugs]

I always thought that the OJC vinyl and the cds were made from the same digital source. IOW a digital master from which a vinyl master is made . Thus the end result was subject to the same noise reduction, etc as the cd.

I don't necessarily think this is bad. It depends on the finished product..and for me in most cases the finished product was fine.

Even the titles reissued as far back as '82?

[Dmitry]

Z,there are several OJC lps that were made from the digital source, I think Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section is one. Most of them are from analog source, that's how I perceive the situation.

Edited March 16, 2004 by Dmitry

[Harold_Z]

I think they had digital noise reduction as far back as '82 (is that when they started to issue OJCs?) and perhaps a little earlier, but as to what records they were used on...can't say for sure, although there are some I suspect and they are not all necessarily OJC. I couldn't venture a guess as to what percentage is from analog vs digital.

The Atlantic issues (for one example) of the Billie Holiday Commodore material sound very digitally scrubbed to me and I think the Atlantic issue is from the late 70s. They could have used digital noise reduction prior to the "cd revolution".

[paul secor]

I've always assumed that the early OJC LPs (up to about 275 or so) were done from analogue masters. After that, they say remastered by ... in ....

I find that, in general, the early LPs sound better than the corresponding CDs.

[Harold_Z]

Anybody know when digital noise reduction came in? I think I remember reading somewhere that it was as early as 1972.

[street singer]

So...

I'm gathering from this thread that there is not a definitive list of OJC vinyl that was mastered from a digital source. However, from your collective personal experience, is there a general concensus of opinion regarding certain OJC vinyl to avoid (for whatever reason)?

[Dmitry]

From what I read - MOST ojc lps are analogue-mastered, with the ones having been mastered from a digital source, those have either a sticker on a shrink-wrap indicating so, or on the back of record cover it says "digital remastering by..."

Generally speaking, I'd venture and say that if you're buying their vinyl that was pressed before 1987 you're buying analogue.

Anyway, I stand by my claim that these LPs trounce cds [no bonus cuts though].

These are not to be confused with the German-made (Bernard Mikulsky) ojc's, which were digitally-mastered and don't sound that good.

[shrugs]

I've always assumed that the early OJC LPs (up to about 275 or so) were done from analogue masters. After that, they say remastered by ... in ....

I find that, in general, the early LPs sound better than the corresponding CDs.

This is what I have been led to believe as well.

[shrugs]

Wasn't Contemporary reissuing titles in the 70's? I know I have a few pre-OJC titles and can't remember who is listed as the parent company.

[Shrdlu]

I know of one OJC that isn't available on CD: "The Red Garland Trio" (that's the LP title, as well as the group's name). So I guess that one is digital-free. It is also the only album of Red's trio with Paul and Art that I have not yet obtained.

If anyone would kindly post a discography of the recordings of that unit, I'd be very grateful, as I want to listen to their work in order. Their output has been scattered over many albums, and the Prestige discography book is too expensive for me. A box set would be a great idea, of course.

I always enjoy Red, and he holds my attention throughout each track. Nothing experimental, just very good.

As it happens, I am more than happy with the sound on the 16 bit OJC CDs. The only thing I don't like is the thin, trebly way that Rudy recorded Paul Chambers during 1956. He must have changed mikes in early 1957, as there is a big difference on the recordings from then on.

[Claude]

Anybody know when digital noise reduction came in? I think I remember reading somewhere that it was as early as 1972.

Digital recording started in 1974, but only on an experimental scale (Denon). From 1980-82 on, most classical labels recorded digitally. Pop and jazz labels followed later.

I think digital noise reduction was only used in the CD age (from the mid 80's on), when the necessary processor power became available.

[street singer]

Well, I ordered 5 early vinyl OJC's direct from Fantasy. They arrived here today (very quick shipping), but...3 out of the 5 that I ordered are apparently no longer available: Pepper Adams '10 to 4 at the 5 Spot', Eric Dolphy 'Out There' and Lee Konitz 'Duets'. The letter I received with the order states that these may possibly be temporarily out of stock or no longer available. Ummm, okay... Since the majority of these have been sitting on their shelves for over 15 years now, I'm going to assume that if they're not presently available, they ain't gonna be. Anyone else experience this? Is this a common occurrence when ordering these?

Edited March 19, 2004 by street singer

[shrugs]

Well, I ordered 5 early vinyl OJC's direct from Fantasy. They arrived here today (very quick shipping), but...3 out of the 5 that I ordered are apparently no longer available: Pepper Adams '10 to 4 at the 5 Spot', Eric Dolphy 'Out There' and Lee Konitz 'Duets'. The letter I received with the order states that these may possibly be temporarily out of stock or no longer available.  Ummm, okay... Since the majority of these have been sitting on their shelves for over 15 years now, I'm going to assume that if they're not presently available, they ain't gonna be. Anyone else experience this? Is this a common occurrence when ordering these?

Don't think that just because they were reissued early on that they will be 15 years old. I am pretty sure that they had more covers printed than records in some cases because some early pressings come with a plain inner sleeve and others come with a plastic inner sleeve. The early covers are a lot thicker as well.

Edited March 20, 2004 by shrugs

[Bill Nelson]

'Street Singer' may have discovered the 'beginning of the end'.

However, a good many OJC titles can still be found in retail store

record bins, often for a couple dollars less. If SS can scramble to

a few such stores, it'll be even sweeter to hold 'em and score 'em.

I've never found OJC pressings or playbacks to be dubious in any way.

Of all the major labels in the last 20 years, Fantasy provided us with the

best quality, low-cost vinyl reissues. I should've bought more.

It looks like the party's over.

[wolff]

Why would these LP's have been sitting on shelves for years? I'm sure they did more than one pressing on many titles.

Other companies have been re-issuing many of these on vinyl over the years.

Check out Acoustic Sounds. You'll pay double, but quality is excellent.

Hopefully, the new owners will do runs of vinyl. If not Acoustic Sounds and maybe Classic and others will lease tapes for vinyl.

Try ordering the Davis, Coltrane, Ammons, Pepper and Rollins titles.

Only one I do not like is Webster at the Renaissance. Real screwy recording.

Guys are selling sealed OJC's on eBay all the time.

There were quite a few titles that never got repressed. Luckily, only a few I really wanted.

I'd call them and get to talking with someone in the LP warehouse and put in a big order. Years ago any order over $100 got free shipping and 10% off.