ghost of miles Posted March 9, 2004 Report Posted March 9, 2004 In the past two weeks I have twice heard Richard Carpenter referred to as "the composer of 'Walkin,'" by people who I assume know better but don't want to go into the details... Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Walkin'" may have been written by Miles, it may have been written by Gene Ammons, it may have been written by Tadd Dameron (sounds like it to me), but it was not written by Richard Carpenter. My readings in jazz history so far have yielded only bad news about this guy--he allegedly ripped off every musician with whom he ever dealed. My apologies if I'm reading incorrect histories; but if said histories are right, can we start putting an asterisk after his name when it comes to composer credits? Quote
BruceH Posted March 9, 2004 Report Posted March 9, 2004 He's at least as big a genius as Irving Mills. Quote
brownie Posted March 9, 2004 Report Posted March 9, 2004 (edited) There is this description of the man in James Gavin's book on Chet Baker 'Deep In a Dream': 'A month earlier (in 1964), Baker had made what he would come to regard as the biggest mistake of his life. At (Tadd) Dameron's urging, he had signed with the arranger's manager, Richard Carpenter, an ex-accountant known for taking out strung-our black musicians and getting them to surrender their record royalties and the rights to their compositions. A grossly fat man from Chicago with cafe au lait skin, a huge bull neck, and a round, double-chinned face, Carpenter spouted stree-hipster double-talk and exuded menace - especially toward whites, whom he hated'. "He had the air of a gangster, like he'd kill you in a second," said Hal Galper, a young pianist from Salem, Massachusetts, who joined Baker in April. Indeed, stories were told of Carpenter threatening to break people's legs - and worse - if they didn't give him what he wanted'. Then: ' He owned several publishing firms - Richcar Music, Charrich Music Mabreeze Music, Music Royalty Corp - and would pay needy musicians 25 or 5O dollars for their compositions which he then owned outright. Often Carpenter who couldn't read a note of music, claimed authorship. The best-known case involved his client Jimmy Mundy, a once renowned arranger-composer for Benny Goodman and Count Basie. After Mundy's death in 1983, Don Sickler, a trumpeter and music publisher who handled Dameron's catalogue, found the copyright certificate at the Library of Congress for a tune originally called 'Gravey'. Mundy was believed to be the composer, although some argued that it was Gene Ammons or Miles Davis. The title had been partly erased; 'Walkin'' was written over it and Carpenter's name inserted as composer.' and so forth... I like the name to Carpenter's publishing firm Charrich! Edited March 9, 2004 by brownie Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted March 9, 2004 Report Posted March 9, 2004 Who knew?! He looks so... "boy-next-door"! Quote
Joe Posted March 9, 2004 Report Posted March 9, 2004 The best-known case involved his client Jimmy Mundy, a once renowned arranger-composer for Benny Goodman and Count Basie. After Mundy's death in 1983, Don Sickler, a trumpeter and music publisher who handled Dameron's catalogue, found the copyright certificate at the Library of Congress for a tune originally called 'Gravey'. Mundy was believed to be the composer, although some argued that it was Gene Ammons or Miles Davis. The title had been partly erased; 'Walkin'' was written over it and Carpenter's name inserted as composer.' and so forth... Fascinating. But how did the tune come to Miles' attention when it did? Quote
JSngry Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 There is this description of the man in James Gavin's book on Chet Baker 'Deep In a Dream': 'A month earlier (in 1964), Baker had made what he would come to regard as the biggest mistake of his life. At (Tadd) Dameron's urging, he had signed with the arranger's manager, Richard Carpenter, an ex-accountant known for taking out strung-our black musicians and getting them to surrender their record royalties and the rights to their compositions. A grossly fat man from Chicago with cafe au lait skin, a huge bull neck, and a round, double-chinned face, Carpenter spouted stree-hipster double-talk and exuded menace - especially toward whites, whom he hated'. "He had the air of a gangster, like he'd kill you in a second," said Hal Galper, a young pianist from Salem, Massachusetts, who joined Baker in April. Indeed, stories were told of Carpenter threatening to break people's legs - and worse - if they didn't give him what he wanted'. Then: ' He owned several publishing firms - Richcar Music, Charrich Music Mabreeze Music, Music Royalty Corp - and would pay needy musicians 25 or 5O dollars for their compositions which he then owned outright. Often Carpenter who couldn't read a note of music, claimed authorship. The best-known case involved his client Jimmy Mundy, a once renowned arranger-composer for Benny Goodman and Count Basie. After Mundy's death in 1983, Don Sickler, a trumpeter and music publisher who handled Dameron's catalogue, found the copyright certificate at the Library of Congress for a tune originally called 'Gravey'. Mundy was believed to be the composer, although some argued that it was Gene Ammons or Miles Davis. The title had been partly erased; 'Walkin'' was written over it and Carpenter's name inserted as composer.' and so forth... I like the name to Carpenter's publishing firm Charrich! Is the inference here that, at some point in his life, Jimmy Mundy fell victim to narcotics addiction? Because I just came across a truly dreadful Sonny Stitt album produced by Carpenter, with three of "his" originals, and the whole thing was arranged by Jimmy Mundy. Just wondering... Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 There is this description of the man in James Gavin's book on Chet Baker 'Deep In a Dream': 'A month earlier (in 1964), Baker had made what he would come to regard as the biggest mistake of his life. At (Tadd) Dameron's urging, he had signed with the arranger's manager, Richard Carpenter, an ex-accountant known for taking out strung-our black musicians and getting them to surrender their record royalties and the rights to their compositions. A grossly fat man from Chicago with cafe au lait skin, a huge bull neck, and a round, double-chinned face, Carpenter spouted stree-hipster double-talk and exuded menace - especially toward whites, whom he hated'. "He had the air of a gangster, like he'd kill you in a second," said Hal Galper, a young pianist from Salem, Massachusetts, who joined Baker in April. Indeed, stories were told of Carpenter threatening to break people's legs - and worse - if they didn't give him what he wanted'. Then: ' He owned several publishing firms - Richcar Music, Charrich Music Mabreeze Music, Music Royalty Corp - and would pay needy musicians 25 or 5O dollars for their compositions which he then owned outright. Often Carpenter who couldn't read a note of music, claimed authorship. The best-known case involved his client Jimmy Mundy, a once renowned arranger-composer for Benny Goodman and Count Basie. After Mundy's death in 1983, Don Sickler, a trumpeter and music publisher who handled Dameron's catalogue, found the copyright certificate at the Library of Congress for a tune originally called 'Gravey'. Mundy was believed to be the composer, although some argued that it was Gene Ammons or Miles Davis. The title had been partly erased; 'Walkin'' was written over it and Carpenter's name inserted as composer.' and so forth... I like the name to Carpenter's publishing firm Charrich! Is the inference here that, at some point in his life, Jimmy Mundy fell victim to narcotics addiction? Because I just came across a truly dreadful Sonny Stitt album produced by Carpenter, with three of "his" originals, and the whole thing was arranged by Jimmy Mundy. Just wondering... don't know which book that was (maybe also gavin's) but somewhere it said that during the chet baker/george coleman sessions jimmy mundy was sitting in some booth handling the compositions/arrangements (there are 16 carpenter compositions in the set, some of which cowritten with "bruce" which arguably is singer gladys bruce who had recorded with mundy in 1951 http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Leaders/BruceGladys-ldr.php some cowritten with stitt... no idea which role who played in all that mess and how much mundy contributed... or why tadd dameron apparently managed to remain the composer of his tunes... here's another album with mundy arrangements and bruce compositions... but no obvious traces of carpenter http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&a...10:hxfuxqlgldke ) i like that stitt and the top brass album... the organ wasn't a good idea though in this case... and it's one of tadd dameron's last works... Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) found this here in the library of congress copyright database... "gladys mundy" says something... what the aka means etc i don't quite get... (W) means words i guess... How now? m Gladys Bruce a.k.a. James R. Mundy & Illinois Jacquet. Type of Work: Music Registration Number / Date: RE0000500763 / 1990-01-16 Renewal registration for: EU0000739704 / 1962-10-08 Title: How now? m Gladys Bruce a.k.a. James R. Mundy & Illinois Jacquet. Copyright Claimant: Gladys Mundy (W) & James V. P. Mundy ( C ) Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence. Variant title: How now? Names: Mundy, James R. Jacquet, Illinois Mundy, Gladys Mundy, James V. P. Bruce, Gladys new theory, carpenter talked mundy out of his contribution to the compositions but couldn't get the part of mundy's wife (who btw under her two names has rather many compositions in the database) Edited July 2, 2009 by Niko Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 aka = "also known as" yeah, but why was Gladys Bruce also known as James R. Mundy & Illinois Jacquet.... nothing much to be found about carpenter except that like so many his career started with dizzy gillespie's late forties big band... http://books.google.com/books?id=HR4EAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de http://books.google.com/books?id=iUEDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de http://books.google.com/books?id=p7EDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de http://books.google.com/books?id=TrsDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de Quote
JSngry Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 Gladys Bruce must've been a catch-all pseudonym for Mundy/Jacquet. Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 funnily, in mundy's nyt obit it says he leaves a wife "brucie"... http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/26/obituari...?sec=&spon= gladys bruce and mundy were definitely still married in the sixties, and in the 13 August 1953 edition of Jet there's this short bit of news: "Singer Gladys Bruce, wife of arranger Jimmy Mundy, is starting a new style fad. She wears odd shoes and gloves." ( http://books.google.com/books?id=nEIDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de ) Quote
JSngry Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 http://books.google.com/books?id=HR4EAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de http://books.google.com/books?id=iUEDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de http://books.google.com/books?id=p7EDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de http://books.google.com/books?id=TrsDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de WHOA! funnily, in mundy's nyt obit it says he leaves a wife "brucie"... http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/26/obituari...?sec=&spon= gladys bruce and mundy were definitely still married in the sixties, and in the 13 August 1953 edition of Jet there's this short bit of news: "Singer Gladys Bruce, wife of arranger Jimmy Mundy, is starting a new style fad. She wears odd shoes and gloves." ( http://books.google.com/books?id=nEIDAAAAM...p;lr=&hl=de ) Louis Jordan would sometimes do the same thing, put a tune in his wife's name to protect some of the rights... Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 back to work now, here's what carpenter has at the loc, in those entries where it says "by gene ammons" it says "Title: Fuzzy. By Gene Ammons. Copyright Claimant: Herman Lubinsky Authorship on Application: Richard Carpenter (on original appl.: Gene Ammons) " the hal galper tune is from that non-prestige album carpenter produced with chet baker i guess... Carpenter, Richard Walkin'. By Richard Carpenter. 1955 Carpenter, Richard Big slam, part 1 & part 2. By Gene Ammons. 1960 Carpenter, Richard Beaver Falls. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Big slam. By Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Boss happenings. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Egghead. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Fuzzy. By Gene Ammons. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Hittin' the jug. By Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Hittin' the jug. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Kicks. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Little Rock. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Now you're gone. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Prez. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Seven eleven. By Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Seven eleven. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Smooth breeze. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Topsy. m Richard Carpenter. 1961 Carpenter, Richard Soul's valley. m Richard Carpenter. 1962 Carpenter, Richard Walkin'. m Richard Carpenter, w Judy Spencer. 1963 Carpenter, Richard Retsim B. m Hal Galper (Harold Galper, Richard Carpenter. 1964 Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 and then i found this ?! http://richcarmusic.net/ Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 also this http://www.sec.gov/news/digest/1962/dig073162.pdf (first entry on page 4) Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 next time... what was richcar vs towns (anybody have access to a database with court cases?) and who was sonny henry ... http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon...HC=22&SID=3 Quote
JSngry Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 Sonny Henry was a guitarist who wrote "Evil Wyas", first recorded by Willie Bobo (w/Henry), and later, of course, by Santana. I also see Cuba Gooding's name in that list of song properties...perhaps this has something to do with "Everybody Plays The Fool"? Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 there's this court case surrounding evil ways, sonny henry and richcar but i just find the solution, not the problem... http://ny.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocVi...41022.NY.htm/qx i also found henry's and carpenter's names on two stanley turrentine albums, seems henry was carpenter's latter day jimmy mundy... STANLEY TURRENTINE: WEST SIDE HIGHWAY 1978 FANTASY RECORDS STANLEY TURRENTINE: BETCHA 1979 ELEKTRA RECORDS Quote
JSngry Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 http://www.jerryjazzmusician.com/mainHTML....ard%20Carpenter http://jazzportraits.blogspot.com/2005/12/...-parts-1-2.html Hmmm....another Carpenter-Mundy/Solid State date... Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 In the late '70s/early '80s Carpenter was Turrentine's manager. IIRC, he was based in Detroit at the time. I dealt with him when booking Stanley. Quote
Niko Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 Impressions? seconded? looking at the albums he produced it's hard to imagine he was only after the big buck or that he made it by producing the albums he did... notably baker didn't reach the level of the seven carpenter albums in years to come and his next albums after carpenter were much more commercial (if i get this right, the baker album on the link jim posted is not a carpenter production...)... after all, the carpenter albums i am aware of, at least before the late sixties, are pure jazz - not the easiest music to make money with, and strung out musicians can also be found in other genres... Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 Impressions? Only dealt with him on the phone. He was tough/gruff but delivered when the money was "right". Quote
Spontooneous Posted July 2, 2009 Report Posted July 2, 2009 A musician friend recalls being auditioned and hired for Stanley's band by Carpenter, weeks before he ever met Stanley. Quote
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