New Woody Herman Mosaic

[mjzee]

My guess is that Mosaic has already done the groundwork for the new Woody Herman set: the research on takes and alternates, working with the label to find the masters and secure the permissions, contract someone to write the booklet, etc.  In this "wind-down" period for them, they have to see whether it's worth it to lay out the money and make it a reality.  I think 3,000 is the smallest run they've ever had.  To look at it another way, if they can't sell such a small amount, it's proof that the jazz market has really contracted; it may no longer be fertile ground to maintain a business.

[JSngry]

I think it's proof that they don't have any faith that they can sell anything past the immediate orders. Can't speak for anybody else, but for me, that's nonsense. I very, very seldom buy stuff like this right away.

[Big Beat Steve]

50 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Oh I know that. I mean I think Bear sells it as R&B, not jazz. I don't think they're interested in catering to the jazz market.

Yes I agree there. Though I wouldn't say the are "not" interested in the jazz market but rather that this is of low priority to them. So they go where they are more firmly present.

[medjuck]

5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

 

And then they have special items that are a "niche within the jazz niche" such as this one that I only became aware of now when I checked their site for this post:

https://www.bear-family.de/various-history-cotton-club-2-cd.html

Of course they can probably afford to cross-subsidize such items (which is a huge advantage compared to Mosaic) but it takes real dedication to put out something like that in the first place.

I own this and it's very good though quite expensive and all of the Ellington material is available elsewhere.

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, medjuck said:

I own this and it's very good though quite expensive and all of the Ellington material is available elsewhere.

Wait wait wait ... THAT can be said of a LOT of the Mosaic reissues too.
So each buyer will have to work it out for himself if he sees substantial sonic improvements that warrant the outlay and/or if he wants to buy an item for its "superior" presentation. (I for one would be more interested in the other artists anyway ... yes, Ellington is around, but he isn't the beginning AND end of the Cotton Club history so a wider variety of artists is always welcome to flesh out the (Ellington) bones of this subject matter )
As for the price, in Bear Family tradition a good deal of it acounts for the book. 2 CDs with a 125-page full-size book with that lavish a presentation (if the photos are anything to go by) isn't standard stuff.
And one final aspect about price and prior availability, yes that price is high (I am more tempted by the minute ...) but OTOH other publishers (even though SPECIALIZING in books and having a good reputation) have managed to almost ruin a truly excellent subject with sloppy printing and packing in random filler stuff that can be looked up elsewhere and does not add all that much to the actual subject, yet their book is expensive. (google "Bob Inman" if you are curious  ) So "flaws" like the question of what's expensive and "not new" after all can be found all too often.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[ghost of miles]

They're going to press it--here's the latest:

New Woody Herman Release

Thanks very much to everyone who has preordered this set!

 

We needed about 700 orders so we wouldn't be underwater on this and we are getting close to the mark. We have decided to move ahead with the project and are targeting an end of year release date/early 2019.

We regret any pressure or inconvenience that this may have caused you in your purchasing decisions.

 

In the future we may be able to release sets that we know will have strong market appeal and will not have to go this route. But there are also others that we are considering that jazz fans may want but have more limited market demand. This type of of marketing certainly is not where we want to be, but this is the only way we could figure out how to proceed. 

Thank you for your support and understanding and we are trying to keep the flame burning.

Michael & Scott

Edited August 28, 2018 by ghost of miles

[jazztrain]

Green light on the Herman box!  They needed 700 orders to go forward.  Expected late this year or early next year.

[Scott Dolan]

 The standoff is finally over!!!! 

[jazztrain]

4 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

They're going to press it--here's the latest:

New Woody Herman Release

Thanks very much to everyone who has preordered this set!

 

We needed about 700 orders so we wouldn't be underwater on this and we are getting close to the mark. We have decided to move ahead with the project and are targeting an end of year release date/early 2019.

We regret any pressure or inconvenience that this may have caused you in your purchasing decisions.

 

In the future we may be able to release sets that we know will have strong market appeal and will not have to go this route. But there are also others that we are considering that jazz fans may want but have more limited market demand. This type of of marketing certainly is not where we want to be, but this is the only way we could figure out how to proceed. 

Thank you for your support and understanding and we are trying to keep the flame burning.

Michael & Scott

Simultaneous posts!

[sidewinder]

Great stuff. Jazzmessengers.com, here this set comes..(hopefully).

[Scott Dolan]

3 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Great stuff. Jazzmessengers.com, here this set comes..(hopefully).

So for some reason I'm still not completely clear on the whole Jazzmessengers thing. Are they resellers for the European market? 

[JSngry]

10 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

we are trying to keep the flame burning.

I do hope they print enough to last a year or two.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

2 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

So for some reason I'm still not completely clear on the whole Jazzmessengers thing. Are they resellers for the European market? 

Yes - at considerable cost savings for those European customers.

[Big Beat Steve]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

Yes - at considerable cost savings for those European customers.

Depends on how you go about it and what the actual box set is.

I was eager to get my hands on the Savory box set and chose the cheaper US of the two airmail shipping rates quoted by Mosaic. Still got it several weeks before Jazzmessengers had it listed and in the end I paid about $5 more (INCLUDING our customs duties) than what I would have paid at Jazzmessengers all included. I'm fine with that.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Is the cost differential due to shipping, duties, or a combination?

[Big Beat Steve]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Is the cost differential due to shipping, duties, or a combination?

What do you mean, exactly?

As with any imported product, this product of course is more expensive if you buy it in an import country.

And in my case the (domestic) cost in the US PLUS overseas shipping PLUS customs duties due on arrival here were a wee $5 above what the list price of the imported product was at Jazzmessengers (incuding shipping because their box set prices include shipping to other countries in the EU). I.e you pay more for the product but save on shipping and customs. In my case it almost was a draw between the two options.

BUT - as discussed in the Savory thread, of course customs duties and associated "handling" (i.e. ripoff) charges vary (e.g. by country) and may make buying in the US substantially more expensive. OTOH it is a rare occurrence that a large box set slips through customs without any duties being charged (in which case you'd save by buying in the US). So that's that ...

[JSngry]

I really didn't mean anything specific, don't know enough. But your explanation helped, thanks!

[miles65]

Just got an e-mail from Mosaic stating that they are getting close to 700 pre orders they needed to go ahead.

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, ghost of miles said:

We needed about 700 orders so we wouldn't be underwater on this and we are getting close to the mark. We have decided to move ahead with the project and are targeting an end of year release date/early 2019.

Very nice that they mentioned specifically how many orders they thought they needed to go/no-go with this set.  Doesn't mean the calculus will always be the same for every set going forward, but I appreciate their transparency in divulging even this one specific detail.

[mjzee]

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Very nice that they mentioned specifically how many orders they thought they needed to go/no-go with this set.  Doesn't mean the calculus will always be the same for every set going forward, but I appreciate their transparency in divulging even this one specific detail.

Also sounded like they were apologizing to JSngry (or someone much like him), i.e. the reference to "pressure."

[Dave James]

Welcome to the new Mosaic business model.  Given the collapse of the CD market, this decision is not the least bit surprising.  I like the concept.  Mosaic is more fortunate than most  in that they have a very loyal, established and excitable audience.  I also believe this change will give folks like us a much bigger say in what gets done, or doesn't, in the future.  Who knows?  Maybe even sets from the likes of an Earl Bostic or a Bill Barron or a Clifford Jordan will not be as far out of the question as they have been in the past.  On the downside, if your musical taste lies on the fringes, I doubt you'll see much that will make you happy.  What Mosaic is saying very clearly is that they can no longer afford to take risks or carry inventory.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Dave James

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, mjzee said:

Also sounded like they were apologizing to JSngry (or someone much like him), i.e. the reference to "pressure."

I doubt that they care what I think. They shouldn't.

But they should get their shit together and come correct going forth!

[Brad]

1 hour ago, Dave James said:

Welcome to the new Mosaic business model.  Given the collapse of the CD market, this decision is not the least bit surprising.  I like the concept.  Mosaic is more fortunate than most  in that they have a very loyal, established and excitable audience.  I also believe this change will give folks like us a much bigger say in what gets done, or doesn't, in the future.  Who knows?  Maybe even sets from the likes of an Earl Bostic or a Bill Barron or a Clifford Jordan will not be as far out of the question as they have been in the past.  On the downside, if your musical taste lies on the fringes, I doubt you'll see much that will make you happy.  What Mosaic is saying very clearly is that they can no longer afford to take risks or carry inventory.

We will probably only see concepts proposed that they think will have appeal to a large cross section of buyers. I know this is a pipe dream and probably has been discussed but partnering with Concord and their Fantasy labels could yield a lot of possibilities.  

Edited August 29, 2018 by Brad

[ghost of miles]

Ricky Riccardi put up a post on Facebook a couple of days ago that seems to indicate the Louis Armstrong 1950s Columbia set planning is proceeding apace... said they hope to make an announcement by the end of this year.  But that's one I'm sure they feel more confident about in terms of ultimate overall sales.  

[mikeweil]

16 hours ago, JSngry said:

Is the cost differential due to shipping, duties, or a combination?

Shipping costs per set are lower when ordering more than one set; customs and import tax depends on the amount billed by Mosaic; but the most important is the $ - € exchange rate. You will get the idea when you look at the differing prices charged by JazzMessengers for same size sets imported at different times.

Edited August 29, 2018 by mikeweil