Which jazz book are you reading right now?

[sidewinder]

A number of books have quoted Tracey’s story on this - and I think I recall him mentioning it on TV. What he basically said was that in general the visitors to Scott’s when he was leading the house trio were a delight to play with but with these two musicians (plus Getz I think) the on-stage vibe and attitude was extremely unpleasant - deliberately so. Great professional that he was, Stan put up with it and put two fingers up in return in his interplay.

Getz of course, true to form. Didn’t Ronnie say he nearly broke his back bending backwards for Stan Getz?

Edited December 27, 2021 by sidewinder

[Gheorghe]

Well I heard or saw Tracey only on records or DVDs. He seems to have some influences of Monk, and maybe those players who wanted it more straight with more traditional chords and lines, didn´t like that. Like Monk, he is great for his own music, but some players like even the great Johnny Griffin told that they had difficulties with his comping...

[BillF]

23 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

Well I heard or saw Tracey only on records or DVDs. He seems to have some influences of Monk, and maybe those players who wanted it more straight with more traditional chords and lines, didn´t like that. Like Monk, he is great for his own music, but some players like even the great Johnny Griffin told that they had difficulties with his comping...

Yes, Tracey was decidedly Monkish and, of course, that takes us pretty far from Getz, Lucky and Byas, though not from Griffin, I would have thought. (I haven't forgotten those Five Spot discs.) Another former Monk partner, Rollins, actually praised Tracey's playing.

 

[Gheorghe]

17 hours ago, BillF said:

Yes, Tracey was decidedly Monkish and, of course, that takes us pretty far from Getz, Lucky and Byas, though not from Griffin, I would have thought. (I haven't forgotten those Five Spot discs.) Another former Monk partner, Rollins, actually praised Tracey's playing.

 

Yes, I can imagine that, I mean Rollins praising Tracey. 
About Griffin, yeah those Five Spot discs are fantastic, but later I read "The Little Giant" , the bio about Griff written by Mike Hennesey and Griff is quoted that as much as he loves Monk and loved to play with Monk he sometimes was not pleased with Monk´s comping and was best when Monk layed out during Griffin´s solo, which Monk anyway did often (doing his little dances).... 
But we must think about one point: If a pianist has a certain style (Tracey being Monkish), this is mighty fine, but on the other hand if you are a "houses pianist" at a club and have to play with different artists, among them Stan Getz for example), you must support them, not try to force them to go into another direction. 
I say this because at the very beginning I made the same mistake, until a name musician told me about it, that I might work on it and this was one of the greatest lessons I got. 

We in Vienna had a wonderful pianist and teacher, his name was Fritz Pauer and many readers might have heard about him or even have some record of him, maybe his famous "Blues Inside Out" with Jimmy Woode and Tony Inzalaco....... well Fritz Pauer could play any style !!!! 
I heard him with dozens of musicians. He could play in a more mellow mood for players like Eddy Lockjaw Davis, Harry Sweets Edison, in a more Bud Powell manner with Griffin, Sonny Stitt or Cecil Payne, he was great in modal a la McCoy Tyner for Dave Liebman , and so on ....... ad infinitum.
And he was perfect on stride and he was as near to Monk as you can get (he even wrote a very fine medium tune "Spelunke" that sounds exactly like Monk, without copying him. I was there when he introduced it to the audience.....
 

All musicians loved him and enjoyed to play with him. 

[sidewinder]

Regarding Tracey’s influences - I hear more of Duke than Monk in Tracey’s playing and the Tracey bio backs that up.

[Gheorghe]

On 29.12.2021 at 1:15 PM, sidewinder said:

Regarding Tracey’s influences - I hear more of Duke than Monk in Tracey’s playing and the Tracey bio backs that up.

Maybe, I might listen more closely the next time. But there must have been another very fine british pianist too, whom I heard on a Spotlite LP of Red Rodney with an all british group and the piano player really cooks and sounds very fine. I forgot his name, but maybe Stan Getz, Don Byas and Lucky Thompson would have felt more comfortable with his way of playing ? 

EDIT: P.S.: The name of the pianist was Bill Le Sage 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Gheorghe

[BillF]

19 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

Maybe, I might listen more closely the next time. But there must have been another very fine british pianist too, whom I heard on a Spotlite LP of Red Rodney with an all british group and the piano player really cooks and sounds very fine. I forgot his name, but maybe Stan Getz, Don Byas and Lucky Thompson would have felt more comfortable with his way of playing ? 

EDIT: P.S.: The name of the pianist was Bill Le Sage 

Well, Tracey was the house pianist at Scott's during the visits of those Americans and perhaps he wasn't the best for the job, but I don't know who else could have done it. Le Sage was a competent pianist - and vibist too, but he didn't belong to that hard bop clique of Scott, Hayes, King, Deuchar and Seamen who were based on the Scott club. Terry Shannon was fine, but not accomplished technically and Gordon Beck, who was later to do the job excellently, hadn't yet emerged.

[sidewinder]

1 minute ago, BillF said:

Well, Tracey was the house pianist at Scott's during the visits of those Americans and perhaps he wasn't the best for the job

Many would disagree with that statement !

Tracey’s stamina and flexibility not to be underestimated with respect to this gig. Admittedly, he did pay a heavy price after 5 years or so - one that could have killed him.

[BillF]

American visitors like Stitt, Rollins, Griffin, Webster, Mobley, etc, etc who came here to Manchester's Club 43 seemed to do fine with local pianists like Joe Palin, who played in a sub-Flanagan style.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2007/oct/18/obituaries.mainsection

[sidewinder]

Never saw Palin - but he does feature nicely on that Spotlite LP with Don Rendell and Barbara Thompson.

Recent charity shop find.

[BillF]

1 hour ago, sidewinder said:

Never saw Palin - but he does feature nicely on that Spotlite LP with Don Rendell and Barbara Thompson.

Recent charity shop find.

Very interested to see my old university friend Brian Priestley there!

[sidewinder]

5 minutes ago, BillF said:

Very interested to see my old university friend Brian Priestley there!

Yeah, it’s an interesting read and all 3 authors are excellent. Very broad coverage of ‘names’ and particularly useful for the generous coverage of UK and European artists circa 1985. I detect the influence of Mr Carr there !

Edited December 31, 2021 by sidewinder

[BillF]

1 hour ago, rdavenport said:

I've never heard of Palin, but I see from that Guardian obit that he attended Chorlton Grammar School, as did my father and my father's brother. Indeed, my uncle ran a Chorlton Grammar School Old Boys website for may years before he became unwell 5 years ago. I calculate that Palin would be 4 years older than my dad, so doubt they crossed paths much (my uncle was younger still).

It's a shame that my dad and uncle are both dead now, so I'll never find out.

Nice to hear from you again, Richard.

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, rdavenport said:

I've never heard of Palin, but I see from that Guardian obit that he attended Chorlton Grammar School, as did my father and my father's brother.

 

FWIW, Joe Palin shows up in several photographs of mid-60s club gigs in Bill Birch's "Keeper of the Flame - Modern Jazz in Manchester 1946-1972".

[T.D.]

[mikeweil]

Was re-visiting these two over the weekend:

[jk666]

[Rabshakeh]

3 hours ago, jk666 said:

Do you enjoy this one?

[jk666]

14 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Do you enjoy this one?

I'm reading it in chunks depending on what I'm listening to. The artist chapters are short and to the point. I find the artists I already know about are less useful than the ones I know nothing about. I picked up his Giddins' textbook at the same time.

 

[Jim Duckworth]

Finding this more germane now that my tastes have broadened.  

[romualdo]

Great new text on the Sonny Clay Orchestra fiasco back in 1928 (Australian Tour) & the White Australia Policy - things were really stacked up against them going up to very senior levels of Government. Author is a historian so the text is backed up with a multitude of references - Reminded me of Robyn Kelley's tome on Monk.

[BillF]

Have been reading this following recommendations here, but heavy ... heavy! It's as unreadable as my Ph.D thesis - and that's saying a lot! I now have serious reservations about the entry of the academy into jazz. Come back Ira Gitler! 

[Gheorghe]

22 hours ago, BillF said:

Have been reading this following recommendations here, but heavy ... heavy! It's as unreadable as my Ph.D thesis - and that's saying a lot! I now have serious reservations about the entry of the academy into jazz. Come back Ira Gitler! 

Thank you for your impression about it. Seems to be more for historians than for music lovers or musicians. Like some of the books I bought and never really read, since there is so much out of music stuff in them. I like bios about musicians, written by people who knew the music.
Ira Gitler´s "Jazzmasters of the Forties" is still one of the best bebop books I have read. I really agree with you. 

[BillF]

10 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

Thank you for your impression about it. Seems to be more for historians than for music lovers or musicians. Like some of the books I bought and never really read, since there is so much out of music stuff in them. I like bios about musicians, written by people who knew the music.
Ira Gitler´s "Jazzmasters of the Forties" is still one of the best bebop books I have read. I really agree with you. 

Thanks for backing my opinion Gheorghe, though as a musician you would probably be better than I in wading through the book's many pages of notated musical analysis. 

[Niko]

You certainly don't want to read Bebop by Thomas Owens then... I thought deVeaux had a fairly decent balance between history and musical analysis, while Owens rarely fills a page without at least some notated music...