Paul Simon

[crisp]

New album announced -- with lots of jazz musicians listed, including Frisell, Lovano, DeJohnette, Wynton, Gadd... I'm interested...

http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/paul-simon-in-the-blue-light/

[Scott Dolan]

I’ll definitely be checking this one out. I pretty much love everything he’s done since Graceland. 

Though I will admit that I wish he’d included more tunes from Rhythm Of The Saints (by far my favorite Simon album). 

[JSngry]

does he still have a voice left?

[paul secor]

He's cannibalized other music - I guess it's time to give jazz a shot.

[jlhoots]

You guys are cranky today.

[Milestones]

I'm happy to see Paul Simon featuring these big jazz names for his record.  It's something that should happen more often.  Back in the day, you would see this from Van Morrison and Joni Mitchell (I'm not thinking so much of guys like David Sanborn as session musicians).  Things may be changing, and that's for the best.

 

 

[JSngry]

  On 7/13/2018 at 7:13 PM, paul secor said:

He's cannibalized other music - I guess it's time to give jazz a shot.

Expand  

Not sure how cannibalize fits with other, canibalization is basically the culinary equivalent of incest,, but Simon has had jazz underpinnigsjazz underpinnings in his music for a good while now. If would like somebody other than Bill Frissell, though. And Paul Desmond instead of Joe Lovano.

[Milestones]

Well, Desmond is obviously impossible.  

I'm quite happy with the choices of Frisell and Lovano.

 

[Scott Dolan]

  On 7/13/2018 at 7:13 PM, paul secor said:

He's cannibalized other music - I guess it's time to give jazz a shot.

Expand  

Perhaps you mean colonized? That was always the charge about the Graceland album. Though I never heard it applied to Rhythm Of The Saints, oddly enough. 

[paul secor]

Colonized is probably a more correct term. Cannibalized was the word that came to my mind because I have such a low opinion of his music.

[Brad]

I think cannibalized is better than colonialized because the latter implies what you do when you settle a new area (e.g., the British in North America, the Spanish in South and Central America) but probably (at least to me) cherry-picking is more descriptive. 

[Scott Dolan]

But to colonize is to appropriate for one’s own use. That is a far more appropriate description. 

[JSngry]

I listened carefully to the charges of colonization/etc and then listened to the music and watched the behaviors. I cast my vote as "not guilty" and still do.

The SNL "Diamonds On The Souls Of Her Shoes" was sublime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp7kaqi1zcc

[ejp626]

I generally agreed with the folks who claimed that this was colonization/appropriation when I was younger, but I like to think my appreciation for nuance has increased with age (and I try to be less judgemental about such projects now).  More than anything else, this notion that Simon exploited these musicians and stole from their culture doesn't give any weight to the idea that culture, particularly music, is all about hybridization.  Also, it is incredibly patronizing to the musicians, assuming that they had no agency -- and couldn't make up their own minds whether to collaborate with the musician from the West.

The sad thing is we seem to be entering a new cycle where only one or two bloggers can incite a sh*tstorm and claim that some project is stealing from their culture - and then shut it down.  While it probably wasn't the wisest idea in the first place, there was a show shut down by the Montreal Jazz Festival because white singers were singing songs drawn from the experience of Black slavery.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4316470/robert-lepage-says-decision-to-cancel-slav-show-a-blow-to-artistic-freedom/

Edited July 14, 2018 by ejp626

[Scott Dolan]

The dirty little secret the finger pointers tried their best to keep hidden was the nuke that blew their charges away thoroughly:

“However, as the artists themselves would contend, “exploitation” and “colonialism” were inflammatory ways of describing their recording relationship with Simon. In fact, Simon went out of his way to treat his fellow South African musicians as equals. This showed in his paying them $200 an hour for recording sessions; the going Union rate in Johannesburg was $15 a day.”

Controversy over.

[paul secor]

 

  On 7/14/2018 at 2:05 PM, ejp626 said:

I generally agreed with the folks who claimed that this was colonization/appropriation when I was younger, but I like to think my appreciation for nuance has increased with age (and I try to be less judgemental about such projects now).  More than anything else, this notion that Simon exploited these musicians and stole from their culture doesn't give any weight to the idea that culture, particularly music, is all about hybridization.  Also, it is incredibly patronizing to the musicians, assuming that they had no agency -- and couldn't make up their own minds whether to collaborate with the musician from the West.

The sad thing is we seem to be entering a new cycle where only one or two bloggers can incite a sh*tstorm and claim that some project is stealing from their culture - and then shut it down.  While it probably wasn't the wisest idea in the first place, there was a show shut down by the Montreal Jazz Festival because white singers were singing songs drawn from the experience of Black slavery.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4316470/robert-lepage-says-decision-to-cancel-slav-show-a-blow-to-artistic-freedom/

Expand  

I agree with your second paragraph. My feeling is if that people disagree with a project and feel that it's stealing from their culture, don't patronize it. And create your own project. I felt that it was ridiculous several years ago when the plot of Porgy and Bess was rewritten to suit contemporary standards. I felt that if anyone had a problem with the original, they should have written their own damn opera.

"Also, it is incredibly patronizing to the musicians, assuming that they had no agency -- and couldn't make up their own minds whether to collaborate with the musician from the West."

Easy to say, but musicians living in a relatively poor country might not feel they have much of a choice if they want to make a living.

Edited July 14, 2018 by paul secor

[paul secor]

  On 7/14/2018 at 2:21 PM, Scott Dolan said:

The dirty little secret the finger pointers tried their best to keep hidden was the nuke that blew their charges away thoroughly:

“However, as the artists themselves would contend, “exploitation” and “colonialism” were inflammatory ways of describing their recording relationship with Simon. In fact, Simon went out of his way to treat his fellow South African musicians as equals. This showed in his paying them $200 an hour for recording sessions; the going Union rate in Johannesburg was $15 a day.”

Controversy over.

Expand  

I don't know. Perhaps he paid well over the going union rate (though what's the source of your quote?). Even so, he made a small fortune compared to what the South African musicians made.

His music as a whole just sounds like weasel stuff to me. Others have their opinions. So be it.

[Scott Dolan]

This was where I got that quote. But I’ve seen it reported before. Could be bullshit, who knows? 

https://medium.com/all-things-picardy/the-rich-history-and-controversy-of-paul-simons-graceland-a8dff6d8328a

[mjazzg]

My problem with the album was that this was Apartheid era South Africa ...how were relationships between Simon and African musicians ever going to transcend that, fair payment or otherwise (apologies if this is politicising the thread - moderator please delete post if so)

As Dali Tambo, the founder of Artists Against Apartheid and son of the African National Congress leader Oliver Tambo, notes in the film: "We were saying to artists across the world that at this point in the history of South Africa [1985], the expression of your support must be non-participatory. You can't go there. The way in which you interact with other people is on a free basis between free people."

Edited July 14, 2018 by mjazzg

[medjuck]

  On 7/14/2018 at 3:36 PM, paul secor said:

I don't know. Perhaps he paid well over the going union rate (though what's the source of your quote?). Even so, he made a small fortune compared to what the South African musicians made.

His music as a whole just sounds like weasel stuff to me. Others have their opinions. So be it.

Expand  

On five of the songs South African musicians got co-writing credits.  My guess is they made more money from that than we'll ever make on a project.   

And do you believe that Kathleen Battle should stick to singing spirituals and stop colonizing German composers? 

[Scott Dolan]

Ladysmith Black Mambazo gained quite a bit of popularity here in the U.S. after Graceland blew up. 

Like him or not, it seems as though there are more positives surrounding the mythos of that album than thee are negatives, IMO. 

[medjuck]

They also toured with Simon as, I believe, did several other of the musicians from the album.  However they were already playing Lady Smith on KCRW in LA long before Graceland came out.  (BTW The only time I ever saw Toots Thielemans was when he toured with Simon. And didn't Phil Woods play on one of his records?) 

[Scott Dolan]

Oh, I don’t doubt that. KCRW is an incredibly progressive station. I meant nationally. 

And you are correct that several musicians from that album toured with Simon, for a couple of years, IIRC. 

[JSngry]

  On 7/14/2018 at 4:29 PM, medjuck said:

 (BTW The only time I ever saw Toots Thielemans was when he toured with Simon.

Expand  

Quite apart from that, any suspicions that Simon is going do be colonization of jazz on this new album is just not based in any kind of historical reality. The guy's been informed by jazz more than a little bit for more than a little while. He's not some dumbass opportunist who's learned a few names and album titles to drop in interviews and shit like taht, he's a sophisitcated songwriter who knows about music far beyond the so-called "three chords and the truth" bullshit.

Truth be told, he was using jazz-informed players on his hit albums in the 70s. Weasely or not, there was some fine playing on those records. And like Jaco with Joni, the best, most musical, Steve Gadd you're going to hear is on Paul Simon records. Tony Levin plays great bass there too.

No, this is not some fad-faux project, at least not on paper anyway. The results will speak for themselves, and I really do wonder what kind of a voice he has left these days.

Changes, the guy knows how to write songs with real changes. If disagreementers won't at least recognize that, there's no discussion to be had, just some emo bullshit venting.

 

And yes, dead or not, I'd still prefer Paul Desmond to Joe Lovano.

 

  On 7/14/2018 at 3:36 PM, paul secor said:

Even so, he made a small fortune compared to what the South African musicians made.

Expand  

As compared to all that crazymad buckage money that American pop session musicians made/make?

If we must cry, let our tears flow freely and universally, not to where they make us feel good leaving them.

[stephenrr]

Lucky enough to have seen Paul and company last month in Chicago on his self-admitted "retirement tour".  He is traveling with the six-piece "neo-chamber" ensemble consisting of string-trio, flute, clarinet, and trumpet.  An interesting crossover from classical and pop on a couple of lessor-known Paul Simon songs.  And he always has a kick-ass small brass trio to assist in those lively salsa accented tunes from the 70's.  The voice?  A bit weak and wavery on the first tune.  But he settled in and seemed to grow stronger as the night progressed.  A living legend who still seems able to bring it and enjoy doing it.  The solo acoustic version of Song of Silence was worth the price of admission and managed to bring a tear to my jaded eyes.  Dylan and Paul Simon are America's greatest living songwriters.  See him while you can.