Vinyl/download-only releases

[ghost of miles]

Not sure if this is the right subforum for this topic, but Medjuck's post about the Pres JATP releases and a forthcoming Mainstream reissue from wewantsounds (Jack Wilkins' Windows) made me wonder about how other Org posters respond to vinyl/download-only titles, which seem to be happening more and more in the jazz world.  (Rudresh Mahanthappa's Agrima is another recent example.)  I almost always pass on such titles unless it's something I really, really want (the original iTunes releases of the Savory recordings, for example--though I immediately burned those all to CD-R and printed out the PDFs of the liner notes--or the Sonny Clark trio record that came out last November--again, I transferred the vinyl tracks to CD-R).  I understand the economics driving these decisions (Matt from wewantsounds told me that the Japanese 2017 release of Windows had undermined the market for wewantsounds to do a CD release--and while I've picked up a couple of those Japanese releases, I'd rather buy from wewantsounds, which has the backing of the Shad/Apatow family).  For those who love vinyl or who are fine with streaming/downloading, there's obviously no quandary here.... but for those of us still attached to the CD format (and who also balk at paying the ridiculous prices vinyl now commands--Agrima is $40 on Mahanthappa's website!  Though I'm sure it can be found cheaper elsewhere), do you see yourselves grudgingly adapting to a vinyl/download/streaming world only, or do you simply pass on any title available only in those formats?

[HutchFan]

I'm bummed out that the CD format appears to be sun-setting and that vinyl and/or downloads will likely be our only options in the future (aside from streaming).

My primary concerns are cost-related. I still spin plenty of vinyl -- but I rarely buy NEW vinyl.  As you mention, ghost, new records are pricey!  So practically all of the vinyl that I buy is used.  OTOH, nearly all of my purchases of newly-recorded music is in the CD format.  Occasionally, I buy downloads.  But that almost always comes down to price -- when other options are just not feasible. But downloads still always feel to me like a contingent, "halfway" thing. They just aren't as real to me as the tangible objects -- whether it's vinyl or CD. I guess it's the collector in me.

So I don't know what I'll do for newly-available music when CDs are no longer an option.

Does everyone think CDs are going to be phased out completely in the future?  If so, will it be the near future?

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by HutchFan

[sonnyhill]

I almost always prefer cd.  Most new vinyl is mastered from digital sources.  So you basically are purchasing a cd that will play on a turntable -- I am not interested in that at all. 

An all-analog vinyl release (with download code) of new music from the right artist might get my attention, but these days such a release is probably prohibitively expensive to produce. 

I also do not mind downloading so long as the material is made available in a redbook cd resolution download.  I am not really into hi res 24/96 resolution -- I just want cd quality.  Sometimes, depending on the artist, the difference in price between downloading on Bandcamp and purchasing a cd makes a difference.  Sometimes, for me, downloading wins against a higher priced cd and shipping costs (so long as the download is available in redbook cd quality).

I passed on the recent Sonny Clark Trio because it was available on cd from Japan with, I believe, all of the material on the lps.  However, the Sonny Clark is an all-analog affair.  If I found  that at a good price (not $40.00), I might purchase it.  I love the picture of Sonny on cover of that lp release.

As you stated, the Wilkins is available from Japan on cd. I understand loyalties, but it is available on cd at the click of the mouse so I understand the decision not to put out another cd version of that release.

Lately, I've purchased more cds from CD Japan than from any other vendor.

[kh1958]

CDs are not going away. It is a simple proposition; artists need something to sell at their concerts to supplement their income, and you can't sell a download card (or who would buy it). Vinyl is bulky to haul around and expensive.

Edited July 12, 2018 by kh1958

[Daniel A]

On the contrary, I think CDs are really going away. And a digital file is a digital file, regardless of storage media. A plastic disc is a less durable format than any sensible, modern file storage solution.

Streaming has all but replaced downloads these days. However, I can sort of sympathize with the fear of losing access to music that is not stored locally; you cannot count on the streaming service to keep your favourite music available indefinitely. But if you want to ensure eternal access to your music, do not rely solely on CDs. A day will come sooner than you would expect when it is as hard to replace a malfunctioning CD player as it is to find a working VHS VCR today.

And I've tried to sell CDs at gigs myself, but nobody is buying them anymore because they don't even have CD players at home any longer. So, since the CD has lost its function as storage media for music it might even make more sense to sell equally unplayable LPs, because they are still more of an "object" to display at home, look at etc. 

[Scott Dolan]

Many cars don’t come with CD players anymore. Many computers no longer come with optical drives. CDs are definitely on their way out. As for what artists will sell at their concerts, who knows? Flash drives, maybe? SD cards? 

I’ve fully embraced it, so it doesn’t bother me. But if CD is still your primary source, I’d highly suggest you be ready to adapt to, and adopt, a new medium. And soon. I know several old schoolers that have switched to streaming services once they found out there was no audible difference. So the old guard that was helping keep the CD industry afloat is slowly widdling away. 

 

[Simon Weil]

I had a conversation with my brother today  - he's an IT pro. He's selling all his CDs and storing on multiple backups - hard-drive, online etc..  Takes less space etc.. I demurred, saying somehow the physicality of the CDs gave me a sense of security. I can just take one out and play it on a machine. Otherwise - I just never quite believe the whole online system couldn't  just go "splat" (or, I guess, that your hard-drive couldn't get eaten by a virus).

[Scott Dolan]

I get all of that, Simon. I also agree with you about the “security” of a physical medium. Not to mention the astonishing history lessons inherent in liners notes, epecially in the Jazz genre. 

Now, I don’t necessarily miss it too much, but it would be a great disservice to any newcomers to the genre. 

Though I will admit that back in my early days with this artform, I always loved throwing on the CD and reading all the liner notes as I was going through my first listen. 

[Simon Weil]

I suppose I'm mostly concerned that North Korea (or equivalent) decides to take a pot-shot at the internet - and then where are we going to be? The thing is wide open. There are actors out there who'd do that just for the sheer hell of it. Not to get paranoid or anything.

[CJ Shearn]

 I definitely hear everyone's points.  Lenny White lamented on the fact physical media is on the decline in our interview.  He said essentially there was an experience and authenticity to browsing for LP's/CD's that is lost with streaming.  The effort it took finding the latest Brad Mehldau Trio disc in Barnes and Noble with their current system was gargantuan to say the least.  I can say for me as a collector it's a bit sad but I've gone to receive all digital media for possible promo CD's.  In ECM's case the WAV files and digital booklets are as good as the CD.  My HP Pavilion laptop (I have mine, and my mom's) I've used for 5 years, the disc drive pretty much quit opening/closing, and I had to use the paperclip in the pinhole method to open it.  The last discs ever in there were the new Trane, when I backed it up on my external hard drive.  For other interests I have like video games, I have a mix of digital copies, and physical copies.  For series' I really enjoy like the Yakuza games, I have the special edition versions with steel books or art books, but for CD only bought maybe less than this year: the deluxe editions of the first four Phil Collins albums, the Miles Trane Bootleg Series, Vol. 6, the new Trane, and Brad Mehldau trio discs.  I think as long as a stream/download is decent quality, and you can back the files up, that's some solace to me.  Players to play physical medium will always be out there in some fashion.

[JSngry]

Not afraid of downloads, burning my own, cannibalistic clutter sprawl or any of that. But what I do want is some kind of official art product and documentation that I don’t have to make myself. Sell me a download, mail me some bookielette, keep good enough CDrs are available, we’ll get it done.

Old vinyl is great for going out and getting it. New vinyl is for suckers.

[ejp626]

4 hours ago, kh1958 said:

CDs are not going away. It is a simple proposition; artists need something to sell at their concerts to supplement their income, and you can't sell a download card (or who would buy it). Vinyl is bulky to haul around and expensive.

I agree with Daniel.  I've been at several gigs where the artist might have some CD-Rs, but mostly are carrying around a big stack of download codes stuck to index cards that they usually sell for about $10...  I've bought a few.

2 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Many cars don’t come with CD players anymore. Many computers no longer come with optical drives.

 

Yep, we don't have any optical drives at all on any of the work computers.  Frankly not too happy about that, but it did push me to digitize pretty much all of my CD collection.

[Scott Dolan]

Download codes! Excellent! I hadn’t even considered that. Cool part about that is you can buy the download code then and there, download it, and listen to it in your car on the way home. Same basic concept and execution of buying a CD. Love it! 

15 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Not afraid of downloads, burning my own, cannibalistic clutter sprawl or any of that. But what I do want is some kind of official art product and documentation that I don’t have to make myself. Sell me a download, mail me some bookielette, keep good enough CDrs are available, we’ll get it done.

Old vinyl is great for going out and getting it. New vinyl is for suckers.

iTunes has slowly but surely been rolling out digital liner notes with their albums. So...kinda the same thing. I suppose...

[JSngry]

I don't want digital liner notes. I want something provided to me that I can stick in some kind of sleeve. I still do shelves (and boxes, but those are supposed to be transitional...). Digital liner notes mean that if I want to make my own package, I have to print at my expense abd cut at my own risk. Fuck that, let me pay $3.95 or so and send it to me in the mail.

This trend towards virtual everything...I really like what it is they think that they're trying to do with that, but thank you, no. I'm still a fan of the tangible.

[mjzee]

My gut feeling is that CDs will NOT die away.  Sales are currently in free-fall, and that may continue, but will not approach zero.  A comparison with LPs is instructive: I thought that LPs had disappeared somewhere in the '90's, but they hadn't.  True, many pressing plants closed, but not all.  There was still a market.  Then, when the hipsters rediscovered LPs, the format revived.  It still might be considered a niche market, but that's all we're looking for, right?  So I think the same will be true for CDs.  Smaller companies are already licensing titles from the majors; there's enough profit there for a smaller company to take the risk.

The industry really took a blow when the size of the product reduced from LP size to CD size; the larger format was simply more attractive and interesting, and could hold much more information.  The ideal solution going forward would be to package a CD within an LP-sized cover.  It would be easy to do: the insert would simply be a plastic sheet with one of those CD teeth holders embossed into it.

[Ken Dryden]

I can't say I've been impressed with the quality of new vinyl pressings, though I haven't bought many of them. I'd rather have the better fidelity (without surface noise, pops, etc.) of CDs and I have absolutely no use for crappy, compressed mp3s.

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, mjzee said:

My gut feeling is that CDs will NOT die away.  Sales are currently in free-fall, and that may continue, but will not approach zero.  A comparison with LPs is instructive: I thought that LPs had disappeared somewhere in the '90's, but they hadn't.  True, many pressing plants closed, but not all.  There was still a market.  Then, when the hipsters rediscovered LPs, the format revived.  It still might be considered a niche market, but that's all we're looking for, right?  So I think the same will be true for CDs.  Smaller companies are already licensing titles from the majors; there's enough profit there for a smaller company to take the risk.

The industry really took a blow when the size of the product reduced from LP size to CD size; the larger format was simply more attractive and interesting, and could hold much more information.  The ideal solution going forward would be to package a CD within an LP-sized cover.  It would be easy to do: the insert would simply be a plastic sheet with one of those CD teeth holders embossed into it.

I'm still not sure. The reason LPs "disappeared" in the 90s was that they were replaced by another physical format with "digital" and "convenient" as the USP:s. (They were also falsely advertised as indestructible/durable, but we know better now) The "hipness" of LPs today is to a large extent related to the format being non-digital, while CDs are just an anachronistic means of distributing digital files. So, since non-physical is now replacing CDs, LPs still have a few USP:s that CDs don't: large covers and being non-digital, all while CDs (in the eyes of the consumers) no longer have any distinct advantages over non-physical files.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Daniel A

[J.A.W.]

I don't lurk here as often as I used to and just saw this topic. I guess you guys are talking about non-classical releases. Though Classical is and has always been a niche market with relatively low sales, there are still lots of CD releases and reissues; as I've been told big, relatively cheap limited-edition CD boxes are selling pretty well and some went OOP fairly soon, with ridiculously high asking prices on used markets like Amazon's. My point is that I don't think the CD format will disappear from the classical market anytime soon, even though audiophile stores like Elusive Disc, Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds are heavily promoting downloads and classical LP reissues, the latter mostly for insanely high prices.

Edited July 13, 2018 by J.A.W.

[Scott Dolan]

2 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

I can't say I've been impressed with the quality of new vinyl pressings, though I haven't bought many of them. I'd rather have the better fidelity (without surface noise, pops, etc.) of CDs and I have absolutely no use for crappy, compressed mp3s.

The days of “crappy, compressed mp3s” are long gone, brother. 

The current generation of advanced audio codecs are CD quality, IMO. I’ve done several tests to confirm as much, as have many others. Maybe my 48 year old ears aren’t anything close to what they once were, but my audio gear is certainly way better than it ever was before. 

26 minutes ago, J.A.W. said:

I don't lurk here as often as I used to and just saw this topic. I guess you guys are talking about non-classical releases. Though Classical is and has always been a niche market with relatively low sales, there are still lots of CD releases and reissues; as I've been told big, relatively cheap limited-edition CD boxes are selling pretty well and some went OOP fairly soon, with ridiculously high asking prices on used markets like Amazon's. My point is that I don't think the CD format will disappear from the classical market anytime soon, even though audiophile stores like Elusive Disc, Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds are heavily promoting downloads and classical LP reissues, the latter mostly for insanely high prices.

Hey, Hans! Great to see you pop in!  

I think you’re right to a certain extent, though I wonder if they won’t continue to trend towards the SACD market, as they have been doing for several years. 

[Daniel A]

Good to see you here, Hans!

From the looks of this diagram, the future of the CD looks uncertain at best:

https://www.statista.com/chart/12950/cd-sales-in-the-us/

I agree that fans of classical music tend to be more conservative in relation to streaming/downloads, but at least in Sweden also classical CD sales have collapsed. A guy I know at one of the majors says that some new releases don't even sell ten copies nationwide in a country of ten million inhabitants.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Daniel A

[J.A.W.]

The classical divisions of the big labels (owned by Universal, Sony or Warner) seem to be concentrating on reissuing their back catalogues in mega CD boxes for a relatively low price per disc - low cost, reasonable returns; as I said above I've been told that these boxes are selling well. New classical releases are mostly made available on CD (and often also as downloads) by small, specialized and mostly independent labels that seem to do OK.

Edited July 13, 2018 by J.A.W.

[Ken Dryden]

I hate trying to store mp3s as well, I have enough in the way of files on my computers. Give me a CD with detailed composer credits, liner notes, photos, etc. I'm not running out of physical storage space, as I have a 10 by 30 foot music library in my basement with lots of shelves. 

[Scott Dolan]

I take it that you use mp3 as a nickname for digital files. (most companies stopped using those many, many years ago. Or never used them at all)

In my case, I love it because I have my collection ripped to my iMac in ALAC and can stream it to my main system in the living room over wi-fi. I also use a remote control app on my iPad that allows me to view and control my entire library from the comfort of my couch.  

[paul secor]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 8:29 PM, JSngry said:

 

Old vinyl is great for going out and getting it. New vinyl is for suckers.

I hope Chuck doesn't read that.

[JSngry]

I think Chuck knows what he's doing. He usually does!