Kamasi Washington - Heaven and Earth

[mjazzg]

4 hours ago, sidewinder said:

I’ll stick to the Jazz Crusaders, Horace Tapscott and Star Trek !

I'm trying to picture how that works...good luck 

[Steve Reynolds]

Another example of lesser music being enjoyed by way more creative music even by many who have decent ears. Really quite sad. 

I was listening to a 23 minute piece of live music from 2011 that included (among 2 others) Joe McPhee (on alto saxophone of my ears were working decently) and Fred Lonberg-Holm on cello/electronics. There were portions of this piece where McPhee’s level of playing was certainly in the area that could be described as “brilliant” and there are many sections where Lonberg-Holm’s level of playing is even beyond that. As we know this isn’t “commercial” music in any respect. 

(It’s actually a track on disc 2 of the 5 CD set recorded live in 2011 in Wels, Austria called Long Story Short - curated by Peter Brotzmann) 

It do remain astounded that many many recordings and musicians such as McPhee or Lonberg-Holm or Michael Zerang (who is the drummer on this piece) continue to be even more marginalized by jazz and non-jazz fans alike even when and especially as far inferior current music/musicians/recording or 50 year old recordings gain all kinds of accolades. 

Over the past 8-10 years I’ve seen maybe 20-30 shows per year (less this year and last due to life circumstances) and I’ve seen probably 25 or 30 shows easily that to my hopefully decent ears would rate as all-time great performances/concerts no matter what the era or style of music might be. Yet not more than a blurb or pulse about any of it anywhere - not even much here. Most recently in what for me was a larger show, I experienced the night of May 23rd @ Vision Fest which showcased among other fine performances a freely improvised grooving piece of stunning jazz where an 83 year old frail tenor saxophonist gave a performance that would put to shame anything Kamasi Washington would even dream of playing.

long live the *great* Edward “Kidd” Jordan 

[HutchFan]

14 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Another example of lesser music being enjoyed by way more creative music even by many who have decent ears. Really quite sad. 

Steve, you come across like a religious fundamentalist when you say this sort of thing.  Of course, you're free to do that, if you wish. Just like others are free to listen to Kamasi Washington -- or whoever else brings them enjoyment -- if they like.

Also, I don't think you're ever going to convert other jazz fans to your point of view about avant music by haranguing them about how "sad" their tastes are.  Rather than bemoaning the fact that other jazz fan's tastes don't align with yours, maybe you could talk about why you LIKE it.  Because that sort of thing doesn't require you to denigrate other kinds of music. ...Again, just a suggestion, just my point of view.

By the way, I've never heard Kamasi Washington's music. So I don't have any axe to grind one way or the other with regards to his music.

I'm just sayin'...

 

[catesta]

On 6/29/2018 at 8:55 PM, Chuck Nessa said:

Any indication of an "artist" inside Mr. Washington?

 

This would still be funny even if I knew his music and liked it. Way to go, Chuck.

[jlhoots]

22 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Steve, you come across like a religious fundamentalist when you say this sort of thing.  Of course, you're free to do that, if you wish. Just like others are free to listen to Kamasi Washington -- or whoever else brings them enjoyment -- if they like.

Also, I don't think you're ever going to convert other jazz fans to your point of view about avant music by haranguing them about how "sad" their tastes are.  Rather than bemoaning the fact that other jazz fan's tastes don't align with yours, maybe you could talk about why you LIKE it.  Because that sort of thing doesn't require you to denigrate other kinds of music. ...Again, just a suggestion, just my point of view.

By the way, I've never heard Kamasi Washington's music. So I don't have any axe to grind one way or the other with regards to his music.

I'm just sayin'...

 

Not a harangue IMHO.

[HutchFan]

3 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Not a harangue IMHO.

jhoots, I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic.  

In any case, I mean no disrespect to anyone.

[Steve Reynolds]

I mentioned that many of these listeners have decent ears so I’m certainly not denigrating people's tastes in music. 

You are correct that I’m an objectivist at heart and with my mind so I have no issue in being referred to as someone who thinks in a fundamentalist manner. I also certainly do not expect many more people to jump into listening to improvised music that many find “difficult” or “abstract” or “atonal” or whatever language one might use to describe “avant-garde” jazz or freely improvised music. I do certainly believe that many still avoid listening due to pre-conceived notions and certainly believe many who have “sampled” or “tried out” certain music of this sort. Understandable as the demographic for “jazz” listeners is older and most older music listeners are not delving into new spheres of music.

I do believe that many are missing out. I’ve said that if my non-jazz loving wife can love many of the shows I’ve been to then certainly “jazz fans” who think this stuff is too far out of whatever are not completely aware of what they are not listening to.

[HutchFan]

31 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

I do believe that many are missing out. I’ve said that if my non-jazz loving wife can love many of the shows I’ve been to then certainly “jazz fans” who think this stuff is too far out of whatever are not completely aware of what they are not listening to.

I think you're 100% right about that. All of us limit ourselves from having experiences based on our preconceived notions about value.

I suppose it's clear from what I've said that my musical point of view is relativistic. Which means that the only thing that I'm "allowed" to criticize objectivists about is being too absolutist. OTOH, objectivists like yourself are free to criticize based on the values that you hold as True.  

I guess I was just defending folks like myself who may have wider-ranging tastes & listen to music differently. 

Again, no disrespect intended.

Edited July 12, 2018 by HutchFan

[Steve Reynolds]

32 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I think you're 100% right about that. All of us limit ourselves from having experiences based on our preconceived notions about value.

I suppose it's clear from what I've said that my musical point of view is relativistic. Which means that the only thing that I'm "allowed" to criticize objectivists about is being too absolutist. OTOH, objectivists like yourself are free to criticize based on the values that you hold as True.  

I guess I was just defending folks like myself who may have wider-ranging tastes & listen to music differently. 

Again, no disrespect intended.

Thanks for responding / no disrespect taken

fwiw - I have no problem being on somewhat of a musical island. To each his own. Sometimes I feel a bit odd with my viewpoints on jazz/abstract music and the relation of all of it to historical classic jazz being at odds with almost everyone but it is what it is:)

Edited July 12, 2018 by Steve Reynolds

[mjazzg]

2 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Thanks for responding / no disrespect taken

fwiw - I have no problem being on somewhat of a musical island. To each his own. Sometimes I feel a bit odd with my viewpoints on jazz/abstract music and the relation of all of it to historical classic jazz being at odds with almost everyone but it is what it is:)

Keep flying the flag on that island, won't you. 

[Scott Dolan]

I gave up the whole "my music is better than your music" conceit long ago. Objectively, there is no good music, nor any bad music. Music simply is, and all subjectivity resides exactly where Dewey Redman said: in the ear of the behearer. 

If someone prefers listening to Kamasi Washington, shut up and let them. If someone prefers to listen to Paal Nilssen-Love, shut up and let them. 

Lastly, don't ever tell anybody what is and isn't good music, or why yours is better than theirs. Might as well tell them their favorite food should be spaghetti because it's your favorite. 

[clifford_thornton]

13 hours ago, Utevsky said:

Somewhere under all those layers of production and bravado there is a decent sax player, I think.

This. And emphasis on "decent." So far I find this music incredibly corny. But if he gets people to listen to artists like Wadada, then maybe it's worthwhile?

[JSngry]

Has he played the Filmore yet? That's what all the hip jazz cats do these days.

[BFrank]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

Has he played the Filmore yet? That's what all the hip jazz cats do these days.

Not yet. He's played at The Independent (a small-ish club) and SFJAZZ.

[JSngry]

If he plays at the Filmore, I hope he gets the Steve Miller Band to open for him. Or Don Ellis.

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

If he plays at the Filmore, I hope he gets the Steve Miller Band to open for him. Or Don Ellis.

or the Ultimate Spinach - long live the DOA Bosstown Sound!

[JSngry]

Put it in the rider.

[Guy Berger]

About 20-25 years ago, people were having 100% this same debate about Medeski Martin Wood.  Their music had genuine and obvious links to the jazz tradition (including some relatively adventurous strands) but was perceived by many hardcore jazz fans as being watered down.  They definitely reached out to non-jazz audiences which was viewed as a mixed blessing.

What do people think of their albums now that the controversy has melted away?  When I revisit their albums I find them very enjoyable; I think they stand the test of time as very good music.

It's hard to fairly assess KW's albums right now because of the hype, especially for hardcore fans.  That said, I think long run assessments will probably be positive.

[JSngry]

What I don't get is the resentment disguised as outrage or whatever when somebody finds an audience, targets them, and then that audience responds. I don't get offended by parties to which I'm not invited, that's ok. You know, go to your own parties, have fun there.

[clifford_thornton]

2 hours ago, felser said:

or the Ultimate Spinach - long live the DOA Bosstown Sound!

good band, terrible name!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

About 20-25 years ago, people were having 100% this same debate about Medeski Martin Wood.  Their music had genuine and obvious links to the jazz tradition (including some relatively adventurous strands) but was perceived by many hardcore jazz fans as being watered down.  They definitely reached out to non-jazz audiences which was viewed as a mixed blessing.

What do people think of their albums now that the controversy has melted away?  When I revisit their albums I find them very enjoyable; I think they stand the test of time as very good music.

It's hard to fairly assess KW's albums right now because of the hype, especially for hardcore fans.  That said, I think long run assessments will probably be positive.

Ditto when the Bad Plus hit the scene. A Jazz cover of a Nirvana song! Heresy!

I've listened to several tracks from his last record as well as the samples from this one and while I commend him on bringing in the crowds to what is being called a Jazz performance, it isn't the sort of Jazz that I like. Maybe it's just too eclectic for me? I'll keep listening though. Eventually, I might change my mind.

[felser]

2 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

good band, terrible name!

agreed on both counts.

[CJ Shearn]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

What I don't get is the resentment disguised as outrage or whatever when somebody finds an audience, targets them, and then that audience responds. I don't get offended by parties to which I'm not invited, that's ok. You know, go to your own parties, have fun there.

This.  Which was the point I tried to make in my article but it did not come off well.

[Hot Ptah]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, Chuck Nessa said:

Any indication of an "artist" inside Mr. Washington?

Yes, to me.

I have listened to all of Kamasi Washington's albums several times each. He is a good but not great saxophone player. His sidemen are better soloists, I think, and I like some of them very much. His art seems to include composing and arranging, more so than many saxophonists in jazz history.. Sometimes his arrangements are sparse, sometimes they involve strings and a chorus.

My take on it is this. In some eras of jazz history, Kamasi Washington would have been viewed as a medium talent, but a credible talent. He would have been seen as an arranger as much as a saxophonist. He would have found an audience, which would have been of moderate size, and would not have offended anyone much. Some people would have really liked his music, others would have been largely indifferent.

He is not a commercialized sell-out, or an offensive thief of others' ideas.

To me, it is not Kamasi Washington's fault that there is not much newly released jazz today which resonates with any sort of wider public. It is not Kamasi's fault that his efforts are not in the middle of the pack of this month's new jazz releases (as they might have been in say, 1977), but are instead publicized in some circles as the new thing happening today. However, I think that we are overstating how popular he is. I think he is largely unknown in Kansas City, for example. (That is where I live).

Kamasi Washington is not preventing any other jazz musicians from writing, performing and recording such compelling new music that it dwarfs Kamasi's new album.

I like Jim Sangrey's statement: "What I don't get is the resentment disguised as outrage or whatever when somebody finds an audience, targets them, and then that audience responds. I don't get offended by parties to which I'm not invited, that's ok. You know, go to your own parties, have fun there"

I think I am saying roughly the same thing.

Also, after listening to all of Kamasi's albums several times, I am quite surprised that they found an audience today. His albums are not especially trendy as far as today's popular music goes. They do not fit in with any current pop music that I am aware of.  It is a fluke that they gained some popularity.

.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Hot Ptah

[jlhoots]

On 7/12/2018 at 2:04 PM, JSngry said:

Has he played the Filmore yet? That's what all the hip jazz cats do these days.

Fillmore - just sayin'!