Coltrane: Both Directions At Once (lost album)

[paul secor]

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to see all of this happen.

[kh1958]

Currently the No. 12 album on amazon, in between Nine Inch Nails and Garth Brooks.

[Steve Reynolds]

Like most us here I’ve listened to a large amount of Coltrane over the years but I’m thoroughly uninterested in hearing this. Just where I’m at. 

MUCH more interested in current or more recent jazz/improvised music

Not as many shows this year but maybe 20-25 per year over the past 9-10 years and I buy and listen to a decent amount of newer creative exciting music. 

Just ordered the new 5 CD box called Diversity from Zlatko Kaucic - a drummer I recently discovered via an amazing Not Two recording. This new box features Evan Parker, Lotte Anker, Rafal Mazur & Agusti Fernandez among others. This I’m excited to hear especially the trio session with Kaucic, EP & Fernandez. Not that’s an exciting discovery to me. 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Steve Reynolds said:

 Not that’s an exciting discovery to me. 

Not or now?

[Steve Reynolds]

19 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Not or now?

Now:)

[mjazzg]

2 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Like most us here I’ve listened to a large amount of Coltrane over the years but I’m thoroughly uninterested in hearing this. Just where I’m at. 

MUCH more interested in current or more recent jazz/improvised music

Not as many shows this year but maybe 20-25 per year over the past 9-10 years and I buy and listen to a decent amount of newer creative exciting music. 

Just ordered the new 5 CD box called Diversity from Zlatko Kaucic - a drummer I recently discovered via an amazing Not Two recording. This new box features Evan Parker, Lotte Anker, Rafal Mazur & Agusti Fernandez among others. This I’m excited to hear especially the trio session with Kaucic, EP & Fernandez. Not that’s an exciting discovery to me. 

You probably know this but just in case, here's a very good Kaucic

https://www.discogs.com/Barry-Guy-Maya-Homburger-Zlatko-Kau%C4%8Di%C4%8D-Without-Borders/release/10237884

Thanks for highlighting the boxset

[danasgoodstuff]

Back to the matter at hand, listened some on YouTube, will definitely get, probably the deluxe on CD.  Wish I was hearing new music even in this ballpark - JD Allen's Graphitti is the best sax of this century to my ears and it's just standing on the sidewalk outside 'Trane's ballpark.

[felser]

Just finished listening to the Coltrane.  Sounds great to me, no hesitation embracing it.  Seems like it would have been a fine sequel to the 1962 'Coltrane" album.

[JSngry]

I started listening to it today, in the car...I like it for sure, but it definitely sounds like a rehearsal tape, which I do like, but it's kind of like Free As A Bird...you know it's a record by a band that's never going to happen again, and it's not their best work, but the gesture warms the heart anyway. I mean, if it's between this and (insert name here of today's people who play in this way), hell, no question. But music has moved on quite a far bit since then (and on any given night, before then), so...I'll embrace my nostalgia without empowering it, ok?

[Scott Dolan]

What if I say no? 

[JSngry]

Then you say no.

[Scott Dolan]

Alright, then. OK.

Just wasn't going to be bullied into it! 

[JSngry]

On 6/27/2018 at 1:52 PM, bertrand said:

Is one of the takes of Vilia the same as the one that was released as a bonus track to Live at Birdland?

I knew that title sounded familiar, found it as side One Track One of The Definite Jazz Scene Volume 3 (of 3), a set of leftovers and other odds and ends. The date there is listed as 3/6/63  and the timing of the cut is 4:35. Coltrane is on soprano. So maybe it is, which to return to your first question of why they would have had this but not the rest of the session, is a very interesting question indeed.

On 7/6/2018 at 9:45 PM, kh1958 said:

Currently the No. 12 album on amazon, in between Nine Inch Nails and Garth Brooks.

And #21 on the Billboard Top 200: https://pitchfork.com/news/john-coltranes-new-album-is-his-highest-charting-release-ever/

 

 

[erwbol]

I think it was also released on CD in stereo on the Steve Hoffman mastered MCA compilation From The Original Master Tapes from 1985, though that was not the first time it was issued.

Trane plays soprano on the version from From The Original Master Tapes.

Timing 4:39.

[bertrand]

It is mentioned in the booklet that it is the only previously issued track, but not why it was not lost, unlike the rest of the session.

I could see a possible reason though: someone thought it was worth issuing on the compilation(s) mentioned above, and this happened BEFORE some nut job tossed the Masters, leaving only Naima's copy. But then why was it still available to be issued on the Live at Birdland CD? Maybe it was issued from the vinyl?

There is also the matter of the untitled original that may not be by Coltrane. I have been brainstorming with Lewis Porter about this, as he mentioned in his blog. We have come up with several possible theories, but none provable or disprovable as of yet.

This release has sure generated a fair amount of controversy. I have gotten heat on Facebook, especially from Willard Jenkins, the artistic director of the DC Jazz Festival who is somewhat overbearing and pompous. I was speculating on the possibility of other artists being able to take copies of sessions home, and he accused me of being a conspiracy theorist.

Coltrane is the only one documented to have taken tapes home, but where is the proof that no one else did? A statement by Rudy that Coltrane was the only one (for example) would be the kind of proof I would want to read. Has anyone asked Wayne, Herbie, Sonny, Dr. Lonnie, Papa Lou etc... if they ever got copies of RVG sessions? My guess is no. A 'no' from all of these gentlemen would certainly be excellent, if still not definitive, evidence.

I still think it is possible that Larry Young was able to give a copy of Mother Ship to Miles, which might have influenced Bitches Brew. It is a long shot, but I have not received any strong evidence to disprove this theory, only mockery.

Bertrand.

Edited July 11, 2018 by bertrand

[JSngry]

Artists went home with acetates fairly regularly, did they not?

For "Vilia", wouldn't they have had the master tapes of the compilation from whence it originally sprung?

[erwbol]

As the title From The Original Master Tapes indicates, the stereo master for Vilia was available for Steve Hoffman to use in 1985. That compilation CD also saw the first release anywhere of two Village Vanguard tracks (alternates of India and Spiritual). The booklet states 'Digitally remastered from the original Impulse stereo first generation masters.' They apparently wanted a mixture of well known and obscure tracks.

https://www.discogs.com/John-Coltrane-From-The-Original-Master-Tapes/release/3691711

Perhaps this 1985 CD was the first time Vilia was issued in stereo? (I somehow thought the compilation JSngry posted was mono.)

 

Anyway, for Buddy Holly's From The Original Master Tapes, there is the Steve Hoffman MCA master tape affair. I forgot some of the details Hans once shared with me, but see here for example:

http://microdynamiks.blogspot.com/2015/08/chapter-2-steve-hoffman-tape-thief.html

Edited July 11, 2018 by erwbol

[bertrand]

40 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Artists went home with acetates fairly regularly, did they not?

For "Vilia", wouldn't they have had the master tapes of the compilation from whence it originally sprung?

The story that is being told is that this was an exclusive arrangement between RVG and Bob Thiele. Bob gave RVG a few bucks to make a tape copy for Coltrane of each session because he liked to yo home and listen to the sessions again. No one else had this arrangement, apparently.

I am not saying this story is not plausible, I just want to know the source. Maybe I missed an article or two.

Bertrand.

[Chuck Nessa]

When I started doing sessions in the mid-'60s it was standard practice to provide a 7.5 inch reel of the days work to the producer  and/or leader at the end of the session. When I recorded Roscoe Mitchell at Rudy's in 1978 we came home with these reels. By the next year when I recorded Wadada there, Rudy had switched to cassettes.

Rudy told me Coltrane had a special deal and would come to the studio without the producer so it seems logical he would leave with the tape copies. 

Warne Marsh and Lou Levy told me after the first session for Apogee, Becker and Fagen passed out cassettes to the band members. When they discovered the musicians didn't have machines, they got on the phone and ordered Nakamichis for all.

[bertrand]

If Rudy made the claim that Coltrane was the only one, then I guess it is true. Surprised no one else would have asked for this favor.

Bertrand.

[Chuck Nessa]

17 minutes ago, bertrand said:

If Rudy made the claim that Coltrane was the only one, then I guess it is true. Surprised no one else would have asked for this favor.

Bertrand.

Rudy didn't imply to me Coltrane was the only one.

[bertrand]

Oh, I see what I misread.

So it is not impossible that for certain Blue Note sessions, the artist and/or Lion or Wolff received a copy of the session? It seems it would not have been inconsistent with standard practice. In Coltrane's case, there was no producer to take the copy.

Bertrand.

[Chuck Nessa]

FWIW, in most cases there was a 2nd machine running during the session to provide these copies.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Chuck Nessa
clarity

[Scott Dolan]

1 hour ago, Chuck Nessa said:

When I started doing sessions in the mid-'60s it was standard practice to provide a 7.5 inch reel of the days work to the producer  and/or leader at the end of the session. When I recorded Roscoe Mitchell at Rudy's in 1978 we came home with these reels. By the next year when I recorded Wadada there, Rudy had switched to cassettes.

Rudy told me Coltrane had a special deal and would come to the studio without the producer so it seems logical he would leave with the tape copies. 

Warne Marsh and Lou Levy told me after the first session for Apogee, Becker and Fagen passed out cassettes to the band members. When they discovered the musicians didn't have machines, they got on the phone and ordered Nakamichis for all.

Chuck, this is a stupid question that I hope I word properly:

Are there any copyrights at that time? 

[Chuck Nessa]

12 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

Chuck, this is a stupid question that I hope I word properly:

Are there any copyrights at that time? 

Not an easy answer. I think most of the US copyright laws have been cleaned up in the last 50 years but.....

US "property rights" might trump (forgive the word) copyrights for the earlier stuff.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Chuck Nessa