2019: Blue Note's 80th Anniversary

[JSngry]

Good. Because that would blow up on them  in a BIG hurry!

[felser]

The session is listed in the 1988 Cuscuna/Rippli Blue Note Discography book.  And it shows as "unissued" rather than "rejected", where there are other sessions that show as "rejected".

[bertrand]

11 hours ago, felser said:

The session is listed in the 1988 Cuscuna/Rippli Blue Note Discography book.  And it shows as "unissued" rather than "rejected", where there are other sessions that show as "rejected".

In the second edition, certain sessions such as the Shorter one were changed to 'rejected'.

I am very curious to see if Feldman puts out a further press release about this. I doubt he will claim he discovered the session, but I also doubt that he is aware that in 1999, when we on the old BN board were asked for a wish list of unissued sessions for the 60th anniversary, this one came up for consideration but was not selected. Six were chosen: Hutcherson's The Kicker, Blakey's Drums Around The Corner, a Grant Green and the Lost Sessions. Also, I think there was a Jimmy Smith. Can't remember the 6th.

I am sure he will not suggest the Train Wreck. He could never talk the current regime into its having any marketability. Remember that Natural Essence was never issued on CD in the US, I am pretty sure.

For me, the interest in some of these sessions partially lies in the fact that they contain otherwise unknown pieces by some major composers. It would be nice to rescue them regardless of releasing the session. The new Blakey has a Timmons piece he never recorded again. That one was not completely lost, there was a lead sheet at the Library of Congress. Jimerick is a mystery, however. It kind of has the vibe of a Lee Morgan tune, but even though almost all of his recorded pieces were copyrighted, as well as a bunch of others, this one is not in the stash, nor was the piece called Lee's Tune from Drums Around The Corner. I assume that one was credited to Lee on the session reels.

Even though the Shorter session will probably never come out since Wayne requested it, it would be nice if someone could at least make lead sheets of the pieces contained therein. If Bob Belden did so, I am not aware. It would be interesting to see, if only for research purposes, if they evolved into pieces recorded later. As an analogy, Wayne told me that parts of the piece Twin Dragon that I found at the Library of Congress were later used on Atlantis, and I can kind of hear what he means without it being overt. There is a research project for someone - what parts of Twin Dragon made it to Atlantis? Wallace Roney recorded it, but it has not come out yet. Lennie White told me they are still trying to figure out the 'logistics'. However, it can be heard as part of an NPR Jazz Night in America broadcast. Would love to hear somebody's thoughts on that.

Finally, on the subject of lost pieces - a rejected track from Grant Green's Solid record recently popped up on YouTube. It's an otherwise unrecorded Duke Pearson piece, possibly called Spanish Dancer. I made an MP3 and paid a musician to make a chart. So now the piece is lost no more, but that does not mean I am putting out there, until I figure out a way to do so. It is not the greatest thing he ever wrote, but it not my prerogative to make this decision. I am sure there are many lost classical pieces that are not the greatest, but their discovery was still welcomed.

Bertrand.

[Son Of Ice Bag]

4 hours ago, bertrand said:

Six were chosen: Hutcherson's The Kicker, Blakey's Drums Around The Corner, a Grant Green and the Lost Sessions. Also, I think there was a Jimmy Smith. Can't remember the 6th.

 

Seven were chosen:

Art Blakey: Drums Around The Corner

Lou Donaldson: Man With A Horn

Grant Green: Blues For Lou

Bobby Hutcherson: The Kicker

Dizzy Reece: Comin' On

Jimmy Smith: Six Views Of The Blues

Various Artists: The Lost Sessions

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Son Of Ice Bag

[bertrand]

Ah, they chose seven, but I got six. I did not get the Jimmy Smith, not sure why.

 

The Blakey, Hutcherson and Reece were too notch. The three others were not as strong but still well worth having.

[Rooster_Ties]

4 minutes ago, bertrand said:

The Blakey, Hutcherson and Reece were too notch. The three others were not as strong but still well worth having.

Those were the best 3 IMHO too, but the Dizzy Reece especially, is just phenomenal.

[David]

I don't know the Blakey well, but agreed that the Dizzy Reece and Hutcherson were top notch. I know not everyone is enthusiastic about the Grant Green, but I also found that session more than enjoyable and certainly worthy of release.

[Late]

6 hours ago, Son Of Ice Bag said:

Various Artists: The Lost Sessions

I return to this session from time to time to hear the Tadd Dameron tracks. (Sam Rivers!)

[Son Of Ice Bag]

Hoping for the "recently discoverd" last Blue Note Session from Jackie MacLean with Woody Shaw, Tyrone Washington an Bobby Hutcherson from July 5, 1968.

I really can't believe that every track of the session is so bad that it must stay in the vaults for all eternity.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Son Of Ice Bag

[bertrand]

Except apparently the tape on that one is missing. Some lost compositions on that one also...

[danasgoodstuff]

13 hours ago, Son Of Ice Bag said:

Seven were chosen:

Art Blakey: Drums Around The Corner

Lou Donaldson: Man With A Horn

Grant Green: Blues For Lou

Bobby Hutcherson: The Kicker

Dizzy Reece: Comin' On

Jimmy Smith: Six Views Of The Blues

Various Artists: The Lost Sessions

 

Like to put in a good word for the Jimmy Smith with Cecil Payne, only thing I didn't like was the running order.

[David Ayers]

On 20/03/2020 at 1:36 PM, soulpope said:

Probably - as a lot of major changes are ahead of us anyway - we should finally accept that the Blue Note vaults are looted ....

Well literally, if Cuscuna was taking out the tapes and giving them away to be destroyed. 

[jcam_44]

I understand that we all want the best sessions possible, but we still watch Tiger shoot 6 over par. I would guess he wouldn't want us to see that. I mean the session is 60 years old. I say kudos for releasing it. I personally appreciate them letting me decide if I want to purchase it rather than wishing on a star to hear it.

 

[bertrand]

4 hours ago, David Ayers said:

Well literally, if Cuscuna was taking out the tapes and giving them away to be destroyed. 

If you mean the Horace Silver, that was the only instance I know of a tape being given to the artist. I never heard it was destroyed by Horace.

1 hour ago, jcam_44 said:

I understand that we all want the best sessions possible, but we still watch Tiger shoot 6 over par. I would guess he wouldn't want us to see that. I mean the session is 60 years old. I say kudos for releasing it. I personally appreciate them letting me decide if I want to purchase it rather than wishing on a star to hear it.

 

There has always been this concern of being accused of trying to make a quick buck. 60 years is hardly quick...

[Son Of Ice Bag]

I can't believe Horace Silver was proud of "Total Response".

Blue Note should have rejected this complete session.

They did not! I did buy it, and it annoys the heck out of me.

Alas, no chance for Silver to destroy the tapes.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Son Of Ice Bag

[bertrand]

There are a lot of 70s Blue Note sessions that should never have seen the light of day.

Not too many clunkers in the Lion/Wolff era though. There are a few that have a bad reputation, but that is subjective.

I think ultimately, the issue is that this is the first, extreme, example of a decision that the old guard (Lion, then Cuscuna/Lundvall) felt strongly about that the new guard (Don Was/Zev Feldman) reversed. How much the new guard took the old guard's opinion into consideration is something we will never be privy to.

I don't think this will happen a lot. This was probably the 'Lost' session with the most 'commercial potential'. The Train Wreck will remain in the vaults although it is a 'better' record. I don't want to speculate about the Shorter session. I will never clamor for it, but I am a bit curious, as I am curious about the Kenny Dorham one.

Bertrand.

PS: The bonus tracks to Sixth Sense were an interesting turn of events. I can't remember how they decided to reverse Cuscuna's decision to burn the session, maybe releasing only three tracks was the compromise.

Edited March 22, 2020 by bertrand

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Son Of Ice Bag said:

I can't believe Horace Silver was proud of "Total Response".

Dude - he did three volumes of The United States of Mind, and never really left those themes behind, ever. I have to think he was not only proud of that, but was adamant about it as being defining of his being.

Besides, that cut by itself has one of the best grooves ever! (and really, is it not really just a not-so-distant cousin of "Manteca"?)

 

[David Ayers]

The meaning and purpose of an archive changes over time. If Cuscuna made it his business to remove items I wonder about the legality but I really question the seriousness. How would he have felt if the unissued sessions he did issue had been been disappeared from the vaults by a previous archivist? I don’t know the facts and the cases seem marginal, but even so...

[jazzbo]

The meaning and purpose definitely does change David. Alfred and Frank had their own intention about the quality image of their label and the integrity and reputation of the work and artists in the marketplace. Michael had his intentions of honoring the label's legacy and the artists works' legitimacy and he and those he consulted had an ear towards consistency and perfection in unreleased sessions and as he told me he felt the artists should be allowed to insure certain sub-standard sessions (which he reviewed with them) never were released. And then again the business changed and the label became a part of one large corporation, and then part of a yet larger corporation. . . and the intentions of the owners were further removed from those of the originators and the concerns of releasing for profit different as well, and now facing the possibility of having previously unobtainable releases offered for the first time from a past golden age in a marketplace that has been slowly starved of such possibilities.

As I see it now one benefit of the possibilities that some of these are being released is that at least we have a choice when offered to buy it or not. When a few people listen to a session and decide for us, we often don't have that choice. Life is good when we have options, and the right to choose. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

What could possibly go wrong?

[David Ayers]

2 hours ago, jazzbo said:

 

As I see it now one benefit of the possibilities that some of these are being released is that at least we have a choice when offered to buy it or not. When a few people listen to a session and decide for us, we often don't have that choice. Life is good when we have options, and the right to choose. 

I agree and we have been lucky in how much has come out of the archives - especially Blue Note. One thing we learn a lot about is why things made it to release or not. Some unissued titles were pretty good, some very good in parts, some had a nice feel but maybe nothing special, and parts or all of some just didn’t come off at all. It all tells us something and gives us a better feel for things we care about. Contrast the Atlantic warehouse fire where we’ll just never know. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by David Ayers

[bertrand]

Yes, ultimately we can stream first and decide if we want to buy or not.

I saw a press release from Blue Note calling this a 'lost' session. What a joke.

Feldman's press release does not make this claim, but he is proud of being a producer of this release. The job was mostly to talk people into putting it out, methinks. It takes a certain talent, I am sure, which I would not have.

Bertrand.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by bertrand

[felser]

16 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Yes, ultimately we can stream first and decide if we want to buy or not.

I saw a press release from Blue Note calling this a 'lost' session. What a joke.

Feldman's press release does not make this claim, but he is proud of being a producer of this release. The job was mostly to talk people into putting it out, methinks. It takes a certain talent, I am sure, which I would not have.

Bertrand.

 

The substantial success of the Coltrane Blue World release surely bolstered his argument, but I don't begrudge him his credit.  I'm glad the release is coming out, will reserve further judgment until I hear the music.

[bertrand]

Blue World is a different situation.

No one at Impulse ever argued against its release for 25 years. They were literally not aware of it, Coltrane recorded it on the sly with the complicity of Rudy and Bob Thiele. But it is under the Impulse umbrella due to the contract.

What they did not tell you is that it will probably be the last release ever of a Coltrane Impulse studio date. All the remaining unissued sessions are probably lost. Our only hope is if Coltrane had a backup copy, which we know he did for Both Directions. But Naima had that one, did Alice keep the ones from 66-67?

I asked Archie Shepp, he did not get copies of sessions. Sonny Rollins did not remember that happening either. Does this prove that Rudy only ran a second recorder for Coltrane? No, it just seems to indicate that he did not do so for Archie and Sonny.

I need to have a chat with Maureen Sickler about all this.

Bertrand.

Edited March 24, 2020 by bertrand

[Son Of Ice Bag]

You need a chat with Ravi Coltrane.

In 2018, he told a german newspaper:

Naimas family has unissued tapes, and his mother Alice has unissued tapes, too. There is more to come.

(Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, June 28, 2018).