2019: Blue Note's 80th Anniversary

[Brad]

On 2/15/2020 at 7:55 AM, bresna said:

And look at the covers of these two pressings. Blue Note has embarrassed themselves with these things.

Damn - I forgot to take the vinyl sleeve off of the older pressing... and yet, it still looks better than that new one.

I thought I read somewhere where these releases are supposed to be pretty basic, not fancy like the Tone Poet. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Brad

[Kevin Bresnahan]

12 minutes ago, Brad said:

I thought I read somewhere where these redorases are supposed to be pretty basic, not fancy like the Tone Poet. 

That is true. But at the same time, how hard could it be to get a better cover scan and make sure it looks good? It still says "Blue Note" on it so that should stand for something. It's not like it says "Applause Records".

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, bresna said:

Cuscuna did say that he gave Horace Silver the recordings made at Pep's in 1964.

I think you're right Lon... I seem to remember that he said that he gave one to Shorter. Wasn't it that 1970 date? The one that Shorter blamed Duke Pearson for messing it up?

That's what I think it is.

[felser]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

The Tyrone set is pretty good, actually. The Dorham is best kept in the can - forever. Haven't heard the Wayne, but I gotta think it would have come out by now if there was any merit to it past being a failed curiosity.

Have never heard any of them, not adept at sources for this sort of thing, wish I was.

[Brad]

1 hour ago, bresna said:

That is true. But at the same time, how hard could it be to get a better cover scan and make sure it looks good? It still says "Blue Note" on it so that should stand for something. It's not like it says "Applause Records".

I suppose they’re devoting minimum capital to the cover but, yeah, you’re right. I don’t have any of these. How do they sound?

[bertrand]

3 hours ago, bresna said:

Cuscuna did say that he gave Horace Silver the recordings made at Pep's in 1964.

I think you're right Lon... I seem to remember that he said that he gave one to Shorter. Wasn't it that 1970 date? The one that Shorter blamed Duke Pearson for messing it up?

I believe Horace got the Pep's tapes, but Shorter did not ask for his session.

When I worked on the composition appendix for the Shorter book, I tried to get more info on what the 5 songs actually were. Wayne's response was that he did not remember the record at all!

I remember that comment about Pearson, and I am trying to figure out more about Wayne's relationship with Duke. Duke produced four Wayne sessions for Blue Note, I am not convinced Wayne was not happy with his work. Joe Chambers told me Duke was very hands off, almost invisible, at the sessions, so how could he mess it up? Lots of loose ends to tie up...

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by bertrand

[jazzbo]

I don't know. . . Wayne is nearly as old as my father. My father is a very accomplished person who has forgotten significant portions of his accomplishments and history. It's quite possible Wayne was given the tapes, destroyed them and forgotten about them. Or not. Either way, I don't suspect we'll ever see an official release, and these tapes have not seemed to surface among collectors.

[JSngry]

I heard the Wayne session described one time (perhaps by Cuscuna?) as a "funk" record. WTF do you suppose that meant?

[Larry Kart]

24 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I heard the Wayne session described one time (perhaps by Cuscuna?) as a "funk" record. WTF do you suppose that meant?

Funk music is dance music that mixes rhythm and blues music with soul music. Funk bands use many rhythm instruments, such as electric guitar, bass guitar, drums, and keyboard instruments, mainly synthesizers and electronic organs.

[JSngry]

Something like this?

 

[Larry Kart]

27 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Something like this?

 

Exactly!

[JSngry]

Maybe George Butler sold the tapes to Columbia and then they dubbed Wayne out and made it a Percy Faith record instead. 

Maybe that's what happened to a lot of people and a lot of things.

This music business thing, I imagine that it's not without its mysteries and Irs intrigues.

[Chuck Nessa]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Maybe George Butler sold the tapes to Columbia and then they dubbed Wayne out and made it a Percy Faith record instead. 

Maybe that's what happened to a lot of people and a lot of things.

This music business thing, I imagine that it's not without its mysteries and Irs intrigues.

That's the ticket!

[bertrand]

6 hours ago, jazzbo said:

I don't know. . . Wayne is nearly as old as my father. My father is a very accomplished person who has forgotten significant portions of his accomplishments and history. It's quite possible Wayne was given the tapes, destroyed them and forgotten about them. Or not. Either way, I don't suspect we'll ever see an official release, and these tapes have not seemed to surface among collectors.

Wayne was not given the tapes to destroy, I guarantee you.

I was hoping he would remember the 5 compositions that were on the session. It was in 2006. He was 73 at the time. And he still remembers his music today at the age of 86.

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

I heard the Wayne session described one time (perhaps by Cuscuna?) as a "funk" record. WTF do you suppose that meant?

It was Matt Pierson. I asked a couple of people who heard it. Not a funk record by any stretch.

Edited February 19, 2020 by bertrand

[Chuck Nessa]

Sometimes you gotta let shit go.

[felser]

12 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Sometimes you gotta let shit go.

Yep.  Obviously Wayne has.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

http://www.bluenote.com/art-blakey-jazz-messengers-just-coolin-april-24/?fbclid=IwAR20crcFmhsa19qUgmDMGfUA6jWyZQ8oBvI8IhZAYRY0xGbCWamWf-DCiwY

Cuscuna can't be too happy about this one. He was pretty adamant that this session should not be released.

[JSngry]

And yet, somebody let it get out and spread anyway. I say kudos to Blue Note for realizing the cat's been out of the bag for a while now and for trying to sell as many of the kittens as they can. And compared to what all was on the original out-of-the-bag cats, it looks like the kittens have gotten all their shots, have been wormed, and are all spayed and neutered.

Perhaps Blue Note can handle other similar vault items under the tributive heading of The Bob Barker Series.

[soulpope]

Probably - as a lot of major changes are ahead of us anyway - we should finally accept that the Blue Note vaults are looted ....

[Pim]

What was the reason Cuscuna did not want it to be released?

[Brad]

4 hours ago, bresna said:

http://www.bluenote.com/art-blakey-jazz-messengers-just-coolin-april-24/?fbclid=IwAR20crcFmhsa19qUgmDMGfUA6jWyZQ8oBvI8IhZAYRY0xGbCWamWf-DCiwY

Cuscuna can't be too happy about this one. He was pretty adamant that this session should not be released.

Maybe he came around. 

[JSngry]

Or maybe he went away...

 

But seriously...does he have any actual legal ownership in the corporate holding that is the Blue Note label?

I mean, he served it well for decades, and is definitely a HOF-er for that (and other things), but as it pertains to the business itself here in 2020, is he Don Was' boss? Would this release even need his approval from a corporate/business angle?

[Mark Stryker]

I believe that Michael remains a friend of the Blue Note family -- certainly he knows more about the company and the vaults than anyone -- but he has no official role, and this or any other release would not need his approval. Anything in the vaults that was previously "rejected" in any era -- by Lion, Lundvall, Cuscuna, or the musicians themselves etc. can be issued if the current powers (Don Was and his team) decide it makes financial or aesthetic sense to do so. The new Blakey is Zev Feldman's first production for BN under his formalized agreement with the company that was announced in the last year. I'm guessing that some of the other sessions long buried for whatever reason will probably get put out. Whether this is a "good" or "bad" thing, depends on your point of view, but of the remaining titles I've heard, there's nothing that is essential. Some things are interesting, often more for the flaws than for what works. (Caveat: I have not heard the Wayne Shorter date -- that's the one thing that I'm seriously curious about hearing.) 

I will say that the often hysterical marketing hype over these unreleased recordings is not healthy for the art form in 2020. Not every unreleased recording, even by true masters, is a lost masterpiece. Often they aren't even very good, and in many cases the artists themselves -- who left the studio thinking "Thank God Nobody Will Ever Hear THAT" -- would be horrified if they knew that certain stuff was being released. As a collector and a record junkie, I of course want to hear everything, but that doesn't mean I have a right to hear it and it certainly doesn't mean it should be for sale. It's hard enough for contemporary musicians to compete for marketplace attention in a world where every truly great recording by every great musician is a click away -- but now today's musicians also have to compete with the mediocre stuff by great musicians that was previously rejected from the marketplace for good reason. That's not to say that there aren't truly important, interesting, and valuable discoveries that are being made. But perspective ... 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

I do hope the "Trainwreck" session gets a carefully curated issue. There's certainly merit in the music, and Tyrone Washington remains of interest as a "story".

This Blakey thing, if carefully assembled, and be pleasant.

Past that, though..."not for general release" definitely applies, imo.

Is Zev Feldman and/or Blue Note claiming that he's the one who discovered this Blakey session, or is he just "presenting" it?

[Mark Stryker]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I do hope the "Trainwreck" session gets a carefully curated issue. There's certainly merit in the music, and Tyrone Washington remains of interest as a "story".

This Blakey thing, if carefully assembled, and be pleasant.

Past that, though..."not for general release" definitely applies, imo.

Is Zev Feldman and/or Blue Note claiming that he's the one who discovered this Blakey session, or is he just "presenting" it?

Regarding the Blakey session, I haven't seen any material in which someone is claiming falsely that this material was recently discovered. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Mark Stryker