Grace Kelly

[jlhoots]

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of folks criticize without really listening. 

[danasgoodstuff]

I found a clip of Grace Kelly where she was wiggling pretty good, and much less self-consciously than dulfer or her ilk which made it way better for me.  Again, seeing her at your favorite den of iniquity could be fun, but in the history of Adolphe Sax's great invention she's barely a footnote.

[JSngry]

8 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of folks criticize without really listening. 

Oh, don't get me started on the listening/listening critically/criticizing dichotomies. Emotional response is one thing, but "opinions" without ability to speak to particulars (and not necessarily in terms of "technicalities" are like buying a cap of your favorite team - thanks for spending your money, but don't wait for that to have an impact - any impact - on the team's actual performance.

[mjzee]

Kelly and Konitz riffing on 317 E. 32.  Not too shabby:

 

 

[medjuck]

1 hour ago, danasgoodstuff said:

There's a lot of people 'on the left'  who seem bound and determined to refight the Spanish Civil War or some other past battle where it's easy to pick the 'good guys'...not just a lefty thing, but particularly WTF there.

Actually it wasn't that easy to pick the good guys from the bad in Spanish Civil War either.  The communists turned on the other leftists-- especially the Trotskyites. 

[danasgoodstuff]

8 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Actually it wasn't that easy to pick the good guys from the bad in Spanish Civil War either.  The communists turned on the other leftists-- especially the Trotskyites. 

Of course it wasn't, but some people think it was....and is.

[Brad]

It only got bad in the SCW, when the left turned on itself, around 1937 I’d say. Had the western nations helped it might not have been that way. However, since the Soviets were the only ones willing to provide aid, the Republican government had no choice to ask for their support. 

[JSngry]

Still dead, though, right?

[danasgoodstuff]

41 minutes ago, Brad said:

It only got bad in the SCW, when the left turned on itself, around 1937 I’d say. Had the western nations helped it might not have been that way. However, since the Soviets were the only ones willing to provide aid, the Republican government had no choice to ask for their support. 

No doubt, but still this pretty much what I'm talking about - those battles done been fought, same for bop v. swing, fusin' v. cruzin', etc.  I hope Ms. kelly does well for herself and inspires a bunch of kids to take up sax and maybe on of 'em will come up with a Prez or Bird level response to the future here and now but that won't sound anything like Prez or Bird on any obvious level and I don't see/hear her doing that, but I could be wrong.  Other dude whose video was posted in resonse - at least he's got his sax tech skills to fall back on!

41 minutes ago, Brad said:

It only got bad in the SCW, when the left turned on itself, around 1937 I’d say. Had the western nations helped it might not have been that way. However, since the Soviets were the only ones willing to provide aid, the Republican government had no choice to ask for their support. 

 

[clifford_thornton]

I'm 41 and am not bothered by the term cisgender or by gender nonconformity. The assumption that gender fluidity is a Millennial construct, and not endemic to the human condition, is totally bass-ackwards. I think some of y'all watch too much cable news.

I associate Candy D. with smooth, pop-jazz, and sort of a bastardization of her father's music with De Perikels (and later). Kelly is a bit more of a traditionalist than that, although she does traffic in some very populist moves and histrionics that are probably designed to sell records. 

[danasgoodstuff]

1 minute ago, clifford_thornton said:

I'm 41 and am not bothered by the term cisgender or by gender nonconformity. The assumption that gender fluidity is a Millennial construct, and not endemic to the human condition, is totally bass-ackwards. I think some of y'all watch too much cable news.

I associate Candy D. with smooth, pop-jazz, and sort of a bastardization of her father's music with De Perikels (and later). Kelly is a bit more of a traditionalist than that, although she does traffic in some very populist moves and histrionics that are probably designed to sell records. 

You and a whole army of straw men just missed all the points, wow.

[ghost of miles]

13 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

I'm 41 and am not bothered by the term cisgender or by gender nonconformity. The assumption that gender fluidity is a Millennial construct, and not endemic to the human condition, is totally bass-ackwards. I think some of y'all watch too much cable news.

I associate Candy D. with smooth, pop-jazz, and sort of a bastardization of her father's music with De Perikels (and later). Kelly is a bit more of a traditionalist than that, although she does traffic in some very populist moves and histrionics that are probably designed to sell records. 

I'm 52 and am not bothered by the term or concept either--you're reading way too much into what I wrote.  Many of the posters here are pre-millennial and stated that they had no idea what the term meant.  My occasional frustration with the millennial left stems from the kind of "Bernie-is-holy, Hillary-is-a-corporate-fascist" mentality that some embrace.  

The jazz community, like most other American cultural communities, is dealing with longstanding sexist conditioning that sometimes leads well-intentioned people--especially those who have automatically enjoyed a taken-for-granted privilege accorded them on the basis of race and gender--to examine their motivations, actions and responses at great length, often resulting in the kind of self-absorption that epistrophy was critiquing.  And there is plenty to address when it comes to the impact that gender discrimination has had on women jazz artists and jazz in general.  But in the case of this thread and Grace Kelly, it seems to me some posters here simply find her not to be on par with the amount of hype and publicity she's received.  Hardly the first time that's ever occurred in the world of jazz!  

[Larry Kart]

5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

We're not talking about the majority Brad its a persistent and very loud minority.

Their use of fascist techniques to silence those whom they label as "fascist" is amusing if it weren't so goddamn appalling.

And now that I see Charles Pierce call Christina Hoff Summers a "professional troll" makes him equally as appalling as the fascists who try to "no-platform" her.

A bit more on Hoff Summers:

https://studentactivism.net/2016/04/27/christina-hoff-sommers-and-milo-yiannopoulos/

FWIW, I don't myself put Hoff Summers and Yiannopulos in the same bag, but while I would not give a platform to the latter if I had a choice/vote but would to the former, that doesn't mean that I think of her as anything other than a disingenuous provocateur.

[Big Beat Steve]

Whatsamatter? Looking on in bewilderment ... This thread clearly turning political and mods galore participating gleefully? Forum rules overturned, revised, ignored or what?

 

That apart, this sums the gist of the discussion up pretty neatly IMHO:

And there is plenty to address when it comes to the impact that gender discrimination has had on women jazz artists and jazz in general.  But in the case of this thread and Grace Kelly, it seems to me some posters here simply find her not to be on par with the amount of hype and publicity she's received.  Hardly the first time that's ever occurred in the world of jazz!  

 

 

[Larry Kart]

1 minute ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Whatsamatter? Looking on in bewilderment ... This thread clearly turning political and mods galore participating gleefully? Forum rules overturned, revised, ignored or what?

 

That apart, this sums the gist of the discussion up pretty neatly IMHO:

And there is plenty to address when it comes to the impact that gender discrimination has had on women jazz artists and jazz in general.  But in the case of this thread and Grace Kelly, it seems to me some posters here simply find her not to be on par with the amount of hype and publicity she's received.  Hardly the first time that's ever occurred in the world of jazz!  

 

 

I know, I know. It kind of slid sideways into that. I promise to stop myself. 

[mjzee]

12 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

A bit more on Hoff Summers:

https://studentactivism.net/2016/04/27/christina-hoff-sommers-and-milo-yiannopoulos/

Seems to me the writer (and you) are trying to smear Hoff Summers by association.  Surely you'll concede that she has the right to speak, unmolested, when invited on college campuses?

[Dan Gould]

13 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Seems to me the writer (and you) are trying to smear Hoff Summers by association.  Surely you'll concede that she has the right to speak, unmolested, when invited on college campuses?

I'll add that Milo does too. Its in the first amendment, which allows all the publications Larry ever worked for to, you know, publish his writings.

[mjzee]

It’s especially ironic considering the current crop of radicals owe their existence to being able to talk on college campuses in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s.  As a provocateur, Milo has nothing on Abbie Hoffman. But now that the radicals are in power, they gleefully jettison the First Amendment.  Power for me but not for thee, y’see.

[Peter Friedman]

The radicals are in power? Yes, the right wing radicals. The Republicans control the white house, the congress, most state governors and legislatures.

Free speech for conservatives on campus is an issue, but so is free speech for athletes, LeBron and Steph Curry, and NFL players who choose to kneel.

And it was the current President who referred to those who did not applaud his Set Of The Union address as "traitors".

[ghost of miles]

29 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Seems to me the writer (and you) are trying to smear Hoff Summers by association.  Surely you'll concede that she has the right to speak, unmolested, when invited on college campuses?

She was sharing a stage with Milo Yiannopoulous?  Unless it was a debate (and the quote therein doesn't seem to suggest that it was), then she should expect whatever heckling she might get.  Btw was it a denial of Mona Charen's First Amendment rights when she got booed and heckled at the recent CPAC event?  And why isn't Liberty University inviting Satanists to come give speeches to the student body?  C'mon, free speech, folks, differing viewpoints needed!  

No, I don't think campuses should ban conservative speakers, or liberal speakers, for that matter.  But if you're going to come in and spout hateful, sexist and racist rhetoric a la Milo or Richard Spencer or some other off-the-charts extremist who's trying to normalize and mainstream that kind of crap, don't expect people to not protest or exercise their First Amendment rights in return.  Don't be such a snowflake, to use a favorite alt-right term.

As for Bari Weiss, that last paragraph is idiotic.  And the rest of her piece is akin to complaining about table manners while the house of American democracy is on fire.    

 

[Larry Kart]

16 minutes ago, mjzee said:

It’s especially ironic considering the current crop of radicals owe their existence to being able to talk on college campuses in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s.  As a provocateur, Milo has nothing on Abbie Hoffman. But now that the radicals are in power, they gleefully jettison the First Amendment.  Power for me but not for thee, y’see.

The first amendment is commonly misunderstood:

"First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech" etc. First Amendment has nothing to do with the right of particular individuals to speak in particular venues or unmolested (does heckling count?), however much we might think it right or fair that they be allowed to do so. For sure, both the left and the right have for many years misunderstood and/or abused what the First Amendment actually says.

[JSngry]

All this because some people think she's totally skilled but also/equally totally boring as an improviser? The world is full of those type and they seem to be growing in number.

Thank god she's not beer!

[Dan Gould]

3 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

The first amendment is commonly misunderstood:

"First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech" etc. First Amendment has nothing to do with the right of particular individuals to speak in particular venues or unmolested (does heckling count?), however much we might think it right or fair that they be allowed to do so. For sure, both the left and the right have for many years misunderstood and/or abused what the First Amendment actually says.

that is staggering that you say this Larry.

Are you really unaware that First Amendment rights carry thru to all state-sponsored universities?  

Or that if a state-sponsored university favors one speaker over another that's viewpoint discrimination, also illegal under the first amendment?

 

[Larry Kart]

18 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

that is staggering that you say this Larry.

Are you really unaware that First Amendment rights carry thru to all state-sponsored universities?  

Or that if a state-sponsored university favors one speaker over another that's viewpoint discrimination, also illegal under the first amendment?

 

Sorry -- you are correct.

[JSngry]

Yeah, that's a marketing campaign that she should take and run with - "Grave Kelley, Thank God She's Not Beer!".

I missed my calling, I tell you.

But instead, I've been called as a moderator, so let's get back to "Any thoughts on Grace Keeley?" or I will clean up this thread like the Busch Bavarian mountain having a meltdown avalanche.

BOOOOOOOOOSSSSHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh...