Grace Kelly

[ep1str0phy]

21 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

yeah... agreed, but I think we cis mostly-white, somewhat straight males in the jazz peanut gallery are beginning to grasp the implicit biases in our understanding of how and why cultural work is created, and there's going to be a lot of weird pivoting until once again we can say something sucks with impunity. 

I think you bring up a pretty good point, which is that it's impossible for me to understand exactly how it feels to be a cis white male in this cultural environment. I can appreciate that we're in the midst of a big pivot in the way that criticism interfaces with cultural production, but I think it's important to recognize that all parties are confronting this pivot in different ways and with different considerations in mind.

The way in which many white writers seem to be coming to terms with addressing and advocating on behalf of marginalized groups is interesting to me in that this is the universe that most people of ostensibly oppressed groups or minority descent (for lack of a better term) have had to live in for a very long time. None of this is to say that a person like me can't share that experience to a certain extent--e.g., I think that many males of color have lately had to deal with, to dredge this up again, the kinds of misogyny embedded in our cultures. It's only that when I have to watch this cycle of constant remonstration, guilt, and self-censorship, I feel peripheral to the conversation--as if it has more to do with the self-censored rather than the marginalized group in question. 

There are a ton of illustrative anecdotes I could bring up, but a historical (and relevant) one comes to mind. There's a (paraphrased) quote from Dudu Pukwana--something that he said to an African American musician--which was this: "I am African. You are American." Dispensing for a moment with discussions of Diaspora and the value of the term "African American"--this was Pukwana's self-made distinction, and it was said with the intention of establishing a narrative that few people had really bothered to explore. South African does not equal African American does not equal African, necessarily, etc. etc.

All this goes to say that the important distinction in this case was made by the marginalized person, which is more or less how it always goes. There's a reason that George Lewis was the one to write the definitive AACM book, or why we still read the Miles or Mingus autobiographies--or something like Notes & Tones--years after better scholarship has been made available. You can really only speak for your experience.

I wish it were easy enough to say something like "don't presume and don't be a dick to others and listen to other people when they try to tell you things about themselves" and get the proper effect. Obviously that is not the case. What I do firmly believe to be true is that the current climate of political and cultural shaming isn't sustainable, because (too put it maybe too simply again) a culture predicated on fear is more or less a flower bed for actual, substantive hatred and oppression. I wish absolutely anyone knew a credible way out of this conundrum, but as we get years past 2016 I begin to worry that we're just getting angrier. 

[AllenLowe]

thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou

 

and  really, the reason I don't like Grace Kelly's playing is because it isn't good. Subjectively, objectively, generically, phonetically, and hysterically speaking.  And I say this is as a white Jewish Presbyterian she-male with homophobic tendencies.

Edited March 8, 2018 by AllenLowe

[sgcim]

21 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

no, not of everybody; the following saxophonists soloed brilliantly in their youth: Jackie McLean, Ernie Henry, Sonny Rollins, Lester Young, Phil Woods, Charlie Parker, Charles McPhersone, Gene Quill, Dave Schildkraut, Casey Knudsen, Lisa Parrott, Nicole Glover, Mantana Roberts, Darius Jones - should I go on? Every one of the last bunch, contemporaries of hers, are far superior to Grace Kelly as a soloist - EVERY one. It is not even close. Really.

I heard Schildkraut on that Geo. Handy album. Now I know what you were talking about!

[AllenLowe]

oh yes.  heavy stuff.

[sgcim]

1 minute ago, AllenLowe said:

oh yes.  heavy stuff.

The heaviest... I don't know how he did it. A friend of his said he was into the Kabala, maybe that had something to do with it...

[AllenLowe]

yes, all sorts of Jewish mysticism; also took rides on alien spacecraft.

[jlhoots]

18 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

yes, all sorts of Jewish mysticism; also took rides on alien spacecraft.

Who is MANTANA Roberts?

What does "hysterically" speaking mean? Is that some sort of veiled woman reference?

What gets "probed" on alien spacecraft.

This thread has turned weird.

We may need to bring back Moms.

[JSngry]

I do not know what "cis" means. Seriously.

[AllenLowe]

1 minute ago, jlhoots said:

Who is MANTANA Roberts?

What does "hysterically" speaking mean? Is that some sort of veiled woman reference?

What gets "probed" on alien spacecraft.

This thread has turned weird.

We may need to bring back Moms.

sorry, I meant Mantan Moreland.

[mjzee]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I do not know what "cis" means. Seriously.

It's newspeak.  You remember 1984.

[jlhoots]

Bring back Erena Terakubo.

[Chuck Nessa]

Little appreciation for novelty acts these days. Maybe she should try playing 3 clarinets at once.

[medjuck]

Happy International Woman's Day. 

[Chuck Nessa]

I'd have said the same on international men's day.

[ghost of miles]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

I do not know what "cis" means. Seriously.

Wikipedia definition, fairly accurate as Wiki definitions go:  "Cisgender is a term for people whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. Cisgender may also be defined as those who have a gender identity or perform a gender role society considers appropriate for one's sex."

Very common term among the millennial left, a movement that both cheers and frustrates me at times.

Edited March 9, 2018 by ghost of miles

[T.D.]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

I do not know what "cis" means. Seriously.

I had to look it up upon reading this thread...

[Guy Berger]

1 hour ago, ghost of miles said:

Wikipedia definition, fairly accurate as Wiki definitions go:  "Cisgender is a term for people whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. Cisgender may also be defined as those who have a gender identity or perform a gender role society considers appropriate for one's sex."

Very common term among the millennial left, a movement that both cheers and frustrates me at times.

Also common in large chunks of corporate America.

[danasgoodstuff]

6 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

no, not of everybody; the following saxophonists soloed brilliantly in their youth: Jackie McLean, Ernie Henry, Sonny Rollins, Lester Young, Phil Woods, Charlie Parker, Charles McPhersone, Gene Quill, Dave Schildkraut, Casey Knudsen, Lisa Parrott, Nicole Glover, Mantana Roberts, Darius Jones - should I go on? Every one of the last bunch, contemporaries of hers, are far superior to Grace Kelly as a soloist - EVERY one. It is not even close. Really.

Darius Jones, that guy's got a SOUND, like Arthur Blythe cloned himself and the're both playing in unison.  Grace Kelly, not so much.

[sgcim]

8 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

yes, all sorts of Jewish mysticism; also took rides on alien spacecraft.

8 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

no, not of everybody; the following saxophonists soloed brilliantly in their youth: Jackie McLean, Ernie Henry, Sonny Rollins, Lester Young, Phil Woods, Charlie Parker, Charles McPhersone, Gene Quill, Dave Schildkraut, Casey Knudsen, Lisa Parrott, Nicole Glover, Mantana Roberts, Darius Jones - should I go on? Every one of the last bunch, contemporaries of hers, are far superior to Grace Kelly as a soloist - EVERY one. It is not even close. Really.

I heard Schildkraut on that Geo. Handy album. Now I know what you were talking about!

[Brad]

14 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

And see this response from Charles Pierce:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a19177772/bari-weiss-campus-free-speech-new-york-times/

His response added little although I agree that the last paragraph wasn’t necessary.  That doesn’t invalidate the rest of the article.  I'm not a big fan of Pierce's.  

Notwithstanding, the concern is what’s been happening on college  campuses where opposite points of view aren’t allowed unless it fits in with what the majority want to hear.  What happened at Middlebury last year was typical.  This is not to say I subscribe at all to what these speakers are saying but the tyranny of the majority should be a concern. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Brad

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, Brad said:

His response added little although I agree that the last paragraph wasn’t necessary.  That doesn’t invalidate the rest of the article.  I'm not a big fan of Pierce's.  

Notwithstanding, the concern is what’s been happening on college  campuses where opposite points of view aren’t allowed unless it fits in with what the majority want to hear.  What happened at Middlebury last year was typical.  This is not to say I subscribe at all to what these speakers are saying but the tyranny of the majority should be a concern. 

We're not talking about the majority Brad its a persistent and very loud minority.

Their use of fascist techniques to silence those whom they label as "fascist" is amusing if it weren't so goddamn appalling.

And now that I see Charles Pierce call Christina Hoff Summers a "professional troll" makes him equally as appalling as the fascists who try to "no-platform" her.

[Brad]

Dan, you’re right, it’s the tyranny of the minority and scary for our future.  I guess college is not for being exposed to other points of view anymore. 

[medjuck]

None of this is that new. I remember complaining 50 years ago that the most fascistic thing I'd heard on campus was the chant of "No free speech for fascists".  And what's any of this have to do with Rear Window? 

[danasgoodstuff]

There's a lot of people 'on the left'  who seem bound and determined to refight the Spanish Civil War or some other past battle where it's easy to pick the 'good guys'...not just a lefty thing, but particularly WTF there.

[Dan Gould]

21 minutes ago, medjuck said:

None of this is that new. I remember complaining 50 years ago that the most fascistic thing I'd heard on campus was the chant of "No free speech for fascists".  And what's any of this have to do with Rear Window? 

I didn't look at this thread for the longest time because I figured maybe Grace Kelly sung at one time or another or something?

to steer it back to the young lady, I am looking at her like she is Candy Dulfur without the sex appeal. And if Allen is to be believed, without sax appeal either.