Why Did Mingus Record Only Two Albums for Columbia?

[mikeweil]

I'd say it depends on how you see the function of a recording. If you think it is primarily a means of documentation of a "live" music, it's definitely ambiguous. If you see it as a medium of art with its own rules, it's a matter of definition. It would at least be fair to ask the musician or give them a chance to re-do their solos. Teo Macero certainly had a classical composer's attitude. Not all are like this, but some act like a general leading an army. Some casualties along the way, well ....

Edited March 6, 2018 by mikeweil

[Teasing the Korean]

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I'd say it depends on how you see the function of a recording. If you think it is primarily a means of documentation of a "live" music, it's definitely ambiguous. If you see it as a medium of art with its own rules, it's a matter of definition. It would at least be fair to ask the musician or give them a chance to re-do their solos. Teo Macero certainly had a classical composer's attitude. Not all are like this, but some act like a general leading an army. Some casualties along the way, well ....

From what I've read, and from what my gut tells me, Mingus looked at records like Tijuana Moods, Mingus Ah Um and Dynasty as albums.  I think he went into those sessions deliberately recording more than he would use, and choosing the best parts.  I am happy to have the expanded releases of these albums, but they are complements to the original releases, and not replacements, for me at least.   

[JSngry]

How many "classical" records have been made by recording segments, not movements, but segments, and then spliced together from the best takes? Many, I think.

I'd like to think of it as the difference between live theatre and movies.

Also, if the real intent of a jazz record is to document improvisation, really, we all have our gut reflexes, but think about what Eric Dolphy said, and think about why people are driven to improvise, and then think about the inherent conflicts there, not necessarily, but still, conflicts nevertheless. For a musician, yes hearing yourself play can be useful for study purposes, but for general audiences, the almost-certain intent of documentation/recording is to present, at some level or another, a frozen picture of a liquid moment in the illusory guise of a solid object.

People needs to think this through, just sayin'.

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

How many "classical" records have been made by recording segments, not movements, but segments, and then spliced together from the best takes? Many, I think.

I'd like to think of it as the difference between live theatre and movies.

Also, if the real intent of a jazz record is to document improvisation, really, we all have our gut reflexes, but think about what Eric Dolphy said, and think about why people are driven to improvise, and then think about the inherent conflicts there, not necessarily, but still, conflicts nevertheless. For a musician, yes hearing yourself play can be useful for study purposes, but for general audiences, the almost-certain intent of documentation/recording is to present, at some level or another, a frozen picture of a liquid moment in the illusory guise of a solid object.

People needs to think this through, just sayin'.

18 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Edits made so a recording can fit a format are one thing.  Deliberately recording more music than you plan to use is quite another. 

Some of the greatest recorded jazz has limited or zero improvisation, right?

[medjuck]

31 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

Some of the greatest recorded jazz has limited or zero improvisation, right?

I can think of a couple but not a lot.   (But I can't remember a lot of things nowadays.)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Glen Gould yet. He gave up live performances for the recording studio.  

Mingus didn't just record more than would fit on a record but on Tijuana Moods at least recorded the compositions in bits and pieces.  And did he ever play them again?  

 

[Teasing the Korean]

49 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

Some of the greatest recorded jazz has limited or zero improvisation, right?

I am more concerned with music than I am with the genre it fits into.  

[JSngry]

19 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Mingus didn't just record more than would fit on a record but on Tijuana Moods at least recorded the compositions in bits and pieces.  And did he ever play them again?  

I'm wanting to say that he did a "jazz meets flamenco" thing at a Newport/NY gig a few years before he died, but cannot readily find supportive documentation. But I seem to recall a photo in DB at the time?

55 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

Some of the greatest recorded jazz has limited or zero improvisation, right?

You don't need Paul Gonsalves to make Diminuendo/Crescendo great jazz!

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, medjuck said:

I can think of a couple but not a lot.   (But I can't remember a lot of things nowadays.)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Glen Gould yet. He gave up live performances for the recording studio.  

Mingus didn't just record more than would fit on a record but on Tijuana Moods at least recorded the compositions in bits and pieces.  And did he ever play them again?  

 

The bootlegs from Birdland broadcasts include a version of Isabel's Table Dance.

[medjuck]

3 hours ago, bertrand said:

The bootlegs from Birdland broadcasts include a version of Isabel's Table Dance.

Right. And I have them.  As I said "I don't remember a lot fo things these days". 

[Gheorghe]

7 hours ago, bertrand said:

The bootlegs from Birdland broadcasts include a version of Isabel's Table Dance.

I don´t remember where I did read it, but somewhere it was reported that Mingus performed it even much later, maybe mid 70´s and went as far as even doing some dance steps along with it, and that heavy as he was, his feet were really fast......

Excerps from Isabel´s Table Dance appeard also on other occasions, I think I remember he inserted parts of it on "Fables of Faubus", mostly on "Right Now at the Jazzworkshop".

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

Excerps from Isabel´s Table Dance appeard also on other occasions, I think I remember he inserted parts of it on "Fables of Faubus", mostly on "Right Now at the Jazzworkshop".

That's correct ....

[felser]

20 hours ago, JSngry said:

You don't need Paul Gonsalves to make Diminuendo/Crescendo great jazz!

But it sure doesn't hurt the cause...