Why Did Mingus Record Only Two Albums for Columbia?

[Teasing the Korean]

Does anyone know the answer to this?  I realize that lots of jazz guys did one-offs or something similar for the label, but considering that Miles, Monk, and Brubeck stuck in for the long haul, why not Mingus?  Were those two albums as celebrated at the time as they have been in retrospect? How did they sell, for jazz albums?  Was it Mingus's idea to leave, or Columbia's?

Edited March 2, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[mikeweil]

One would have to look at the contracts. Mingus recorded for many labels: Starting in January 1956 it was Atlantic, Jubilee, RCA Victor, Bethlehem, United Artists, Atlantic again, before the sessions for Columbia in May and November, 1959. After that it was Mercury, Atlantic, Candid, Atlantic, United Artists, and then Impulse in 1963. After that it was live recordings for the remainder of the decade. Considering Mingus' temper it mustn't have been easy to deal with him. Who recorded for more different labels in those years?

Perhaps there's some info in his autobiography?

Edited March 2, 2018 by mikeweil

[Gheorghe]

I think he felt more comfortable with Atlantic, with Nesuhi Ertegun and Ilhan Mimaroglu. Anyway Columbia was very good for artists and they made albums that sold well and made fine money, but they could drop artists very fast, as happened to Woody Shaw, and Dexter Gordon, eventually they were dropped from the list, at least that´s what I think how it was....

[clifford_thornton]

He was back on Columbia again in 1972, so there were technically four Mingus Columbia LPs.

[Guy Berger]

4 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Does anyone know the answer to this?  I realize that lots of jazz guys did one-offs or something similar for the label, but considering that Miles, Monk, and Brubeck stuck in for the long haul, why not Mingus?  Were those two albums as celebrated at the time as they have been in retrospect? How did they sell, for jazz albums?  Was it Mingus's idea to leave, or Columbia's?

Wasn't Mingus unhappy with the financial arrangement?  I seem to recall something like this cited in Priestley's biography, plus shortly thereafter he created Candid.

[Chuck Nessa]

Mingus did not create Candid.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

Wasn't Mingus unhappy with the financial arrangement?  I seem to recall something like this cited in Priestley's biography, plus shortly thereafter he created Candid.

You must be thinking of the Debut record label, which had already folded by the time of Mingus' first Columbia recordings.

EDIT: I meant to type Debut there!

Edited March 2, 2018 by Kevin Bresnahan

[Chuck Nessa]

Candid was formed after the first Mingus Columbias.

[clifford_thornton]

Kevin, you're probably thinking of Debut.

Mingus started issuing music on Jazz Workshop (Mingus/JWS) after the dissolution of Candid. 

[medjuck]

I remember an interview where he said RCA was the first label to actually pay him royalties when they finally released Tijuana Moods.  At the time I presumed that he was taking a shot at Columbia and Atlantic.  

[Mark Stryker]

18 minutes ago, medjuck said:

I remember an interview where he said RCA was the first label to actually pay him royalties when they finally released Tijuana Moods.  At the time I presumed that he was taking a shot at Columbia and Atlantic.  

Per Gene Santoro's MIngus biography, the original deal he signed with Columbia was for only two LPs.-- Santoro writes the deal was actually for two records of Jelly Roll Morton compositions but Mingus changed his mind. Additional context from the book: Mingus received $2,336 in royalties from Atlantic in the first quarter of 1960. In August of 1960 he received $905 in royalties from Columbia, though it's not clear what time period that check covered. The book also says he received later in the year a "quarterly royalty statement" from Columbia for $790. 

Those royalty checks together add up to $4,000, which according to inflation calculators is worth $33,000 in 2018 dollars. That's not bad money. On the other hand, he apparently still actually owed Bethlehem $,5,304 on their advances.

 

[medjuck]

3 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

Per Gene Santoro's MIngus biography, the original deal he signed with Columbia was for only two LPs.-- Santoro writes the deal was actually for two records of Jelly Roll Morton compositions but Mingus changed his mind. Additional context from the book: Mingus received $2,336 in royalties from Atlantic in the first quarter of 1960. In August of 1960 he received $905 in royalties from Columbia, though it's not clear what time period that check covered. The book also says he received later in the year a "quarterly royalty statement" from Columbia for $790. 

Those royalty checks together add up to $4,000, which according to inflation calculators is worth $33,000 in 2018 dollars. That's not bad money. On the other hand, he apparently still actually owed Bethlehem $,5,304 on their advances.

 

Interesting. I definitely thought he meant he got no royalties from them (in the interview I read 50 years ago and will never be able to find) but he may have meant that he got more royalties from RCA.  I vaguely remember him saying something about it being better to be with a big company but Columbia was a big company. 

[Chuck Nessa]

12 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Interesting. I definitely thought he meant he got no royalties from them (in the interview I read 50 years ago and will never be able to find) but he may have meant that he got more royalties from RCA.  I vaguely remember him saying something about it being better to be with a big company but Columbia was a big company. 

It is not unusual for musicians to claim they got no royalties - many times it is true but I am sure Columbia lived up to their obligations.

[Guy Berger]

7 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Mingus did not create Candid.

@Kevin Bresnahan is right - I mentally mixed up Debut and Candid, probably influenced by Candid's lo-fi aesthetic.  Sorry guys!

[Chuck Nessa]

3 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

@Kevin Bresnahan is right - I mentally mixed up Debut and Candid, probably influenced by Candid's lo-fi aesthetic.  Sorry guys!

Candid was not lo-fi! What are you talking about?

Edited March 3, 2018 by Chuck Nessa

[paul secor]

I was going to say the same thing. You beat me to it.

[Bill Nelson]

Mingus' return to Columbia in 1972 ('Let My Children hear Music') was a one-off affair.  The Great Columbia Jazz Purge of '73 saw the sacking of MIngus, Ornette, Bill Evans, and Keith Jarrett ALL ON THE SAME DAY.

Bruce Lundvall: "I shouldn't be telling you this because I don't want to disparage Clive (Davis).  There was a moment when we (Columbia) had Ornette, Keith, Bill, and Mingus.  They were all dropped in one day.  How this happened I have no idea.  Keith Jarrett phoned me, "You fucking jerks."  I had nothing to do with the decision."

from interview by Ted Panken, Jan. 9, 2009.

(Our Ghost of Miles contributor explored this at length in his 'Nightlights' of 6/29/2015)

[Chuck Nessa]

You forget this:

[sidewinder]

Also the recording at Ronnie Scotts which was planned as a 2LP set by UK CBS and never put out. Around the same time.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

Thanks all.  I had forgotten that Mingus went back to Columbia briefly during the label's second fling with jazz.

Not to hijack my own thread, but the jazz one-offs on Columbia over the years are also interesting.  Do you think some of these were made on spec, and when they tanked, the artists were not invited back?

[Milestones]

Columbia's jazz purge of 1973 certainly belongs in recorded music's Hall of Shame.

[JSngry]

[clifford_thornton]

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Thanks all.  I had forgotten that Mingus went back to Columbia briefly during the label's second fling with jazz.

Not to hijack my own thread, but the jazz one-offs on Columbia over the years are also interesting.  Do you think some of these were made on spec, and when they tanked, the artists were not invited back?

not sure; according to artists I've talked to, John Hammond wanted to record a few examples of the New Music in the late '60s, hence the Burton Greene and (unissued) Sunny Murray discs. I'm sure there are a number of one-shot deals in Columbia's history (certainly with weird rock bands).

[Teasing the Korean]

33 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

not sure; according to artists I've talked to, John Hammond wanted to record a few examples of the New Music in the late '60s, hence the Burton Greene and (unissued) Sunny Murray discs. I'm sure there are a number of one-shot deals in Columbia's history (certainly with weird rock bands).

The first album that popped into my head was the Bob Brookmeyer album with Gary Burton, Herbie Hancock, etc. 

[T.D.]

Not conclusive, but Krin Gabbard's biography Better Git It In Your Soul says (p.64)

"Mingus's tenure with Columbia ended shortly after [Mingus Dynasty] possibly because of conflicts with Teo Macero. Others suspect that John Hammond, Columbia's legendary producer...decided it was time for Mingus to go. Charles would later refer to Hammond as 'John Ham-Head' and accuse him of lying about the sales of Mingus's records."

In the same source, I could not find any theories about the two later Columbia albums.

Edited March 3, 2018 by T.D.