Berklee in the News (and it ain't pretty)

[Dmitry]

1 hour ago, sonnyhill said:

No one wrote that he was guilty or innocent.  The quotes speak for themselves.

You believe everything you read in the media?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Dmitry - it sounds like you're asking for context. Context might help soften the impact of these words, but in the end, they are terrible.

I suppose maybe an audio recording of that interview might help as well. Spoken word does not always translate well to print, especially the emotion behind those words. Maybe Osby was trying to be a comedian when he said these things? If that is what he was trying for, he should stick to playing saxophone.

[ghost of miles]

Yeah, very unpleasant responses from Osby.  As somebody noted on Facebook, describing it as "open season" once students have graduated certainly strikes a tone of women regarded as prey, and the quote about comparing his accuser's looks to those of his girlfriend sounded downright Trumpian.

Not really surprised, though, that something so endemic to our culture would manifest itself in the jazz world and a jazz-education institution.  The bigger surprise would be if that weren't the case.  (This story also can't help but remind me of the jazz-ed folks who were so up in arms about Whiplash, which offered a study of a very different kind of abuse, but one couched in a similar teacher-student dynamic.)  There's a ton of gender injustice in jazz's past, and a considerable amount still in effect today, but I also think there's a much higher level of consciousness emerging about it...and the young musicians I know today are of no mind to put up with it, either.    

[Niko]

Greg Osby on these matters:

https://twitter.com/gregosby

it should also be kept in mind that this was not just some random interview conducted because he has, say, a new album out. It was an interview discussing how he lost his job due to "sexual misconduct"... He denies neither of the statements - and especially for the one about his girlfriend at the time, I find it extremely hard to even imagine a context where this would be ok.

[Dmitry]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

Greg Osby on these matters:

https://twitter.com/gregosby

 

 I trust what Osby says more than an a member of the second oldest profession who wrote the BG pliece. Unless proven otherwise. 

Would you believe that it was Osby's Mindgames playing in the Moscow hotel room when a couple of Russian hookers were peeing on the bed in which the then president had slept?  

 

 

[sonnyhill]

2 hours ago, Dmitry said:

You believe everything you read in the media?

Do you believe he was misquoted? 

I do not know whether the allegations against Osby are true or not. 

I do know that when you are doing an interview in a major newspaper concerning allegations lodged against you for sexual misconduct the use of a phrase like "open season" with respect to women and intimating that you would not engage in sexual misconduct against someone because of your estimation of the comparative attractiveness of that person and your girlfriend at the time are unwise, at best. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by sonnyhill

[ghost of miles]

By all means, the Boston Globe should publish the full transcript of the interview.  Hard for me to imagine a greater context where Osby's remarks "sound" better or don't come across as insensitive at best, but if the reporter is any kind of pro, the conversation was recorded and the quotes were not taken out of context.  I have a high regard for old-school journalism, especially from papers like the Boston Globe and the New York Times, and if the Globe somehow misrepresented Osby here, they need to own up to it.  I seriously doubt those quotes were invented out of whole cloth, and sure, let's see the context.

[Dmitry]

3 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

 I have a high regard for old-school journalism, especially from papers like the Boston Globe and the New York Times, and if the Globe somehow misrepresented Osby here, they need to own up to it.  I seriously doubt those quotes were invented out of whole cloth, and sure, let's see the context.

Is this the same old-school journalism stalwart NYT that sent Walter Duranty to cover collectivization in the Soviet Union? He got a Pulitzer for not only not reporting, but denying that 5 million people were dying there of starvation. That NYT? They even have a mea culpa page about that on their website 85 years later. Just sayin'...

So BG informs the reader that they conducted an hour-long interview with GO, and then print just 2 self-implicating sentences from it. You do realize that they may have WILLINGLY AND EAGERLY fucked up this guy's career for the rest of his life?! 

 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

3 hours ago, Niko said:

Greg Osby on these matters:

https://twitter.com/gregosby

it should also be kept in mind that this was not just some random interview conducted because he has, say, a new album out. It was an interview discussing how he lost his job due to "sexual misconduct"... He denies neither of the statements - and especially for the one about his girlfriend at the time, I find it extremely hard to even imagine a context where this would be ok.

For those who don't want to click on a twitter link:

"Anyone that believes that I would be so insensitive as to make crass statements as were published clearly needs to reconsider, and also realize how sensationalist "journalism" works. Those isolated statements were part of a greater dialog and were not meant to make light of the issue. I spoke for over an hour and yet, none of those parts of the interview were used. What was printed was juxtaposed and made to look very disrespectful and harsh. I was making a point, NOT saying it as OK. Each statement had entirely different meaning.

Many of the negative responses have been from persons that don't know me or who have never been interviewed. I have always been an advocate and die hard supporter of women's rights and it is unfortunate that the article projects otherwise. My apologies for the miscommunication. Had my thoughts been published fully, it would be clear what my position and thoughts are. I never imagined that I would be caught in the middle of such a controversy. However, those that know me, know where I stand.

It is apparent that very few people know what actually happens during interviews. Complete statements are extracted, omitted & highlighted for effect and shock value. I have refused speaking to journalists for this reason & this last one should have been one of those times."

So basically, Greg Osby is claiming that he was quoted out of context, as many of us probably expected him to say.

I guess this is why some famous people bring their own tape recorder to interviews - so they have their own copy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ghost of miles]

3 hours ago, Dmitry said:

Is this the same old-school journalism stalwart NYT that sent Walter Duranty to cover collectivization in the Soviet Union? He got a Pulitzer for not only not reporting, but denying that 5 million people were dying there of starvation. That NYT? They even have a mea culpa page about that on their website 85 years later. Just sayin'...

So BG informs the reader that they conducted an hour-long interview with GO, and then print just 2 self-implicating sentences from it. You do realize that they may have WILLINGLY AND EAGERLY fucked up this guy's career for the rest of his life?! 

 

Why would the Boston Globe have any interest in "WILLINGLY AND EAGERLY" f'ing up Greg Osby's career?  He's all but unknown outside of the jazz world.  Women across every spectrum of culture are coming out with stories of being sexually assaulted and harassed, and it's no surprise that evidently it's been a problem at Berklee as well.  In any event I'm not responding to the allegations, I'm responding to what Osby is quoted as saying.  So far he hasn't denied that he actually said those things.  If the Globe prints a transcript or offers a recording that shows him saying, "Now, suppose I were to say (insert offending quote)," then yeah, he's been sadly wronged.  But if you believe that, I have a Trump Tower I'd like to sell you.  And no, the NY Times isn't perfect--they certainly screwed up their WMD reporting in the early 2000s, indirectly enabling the Bush admin's unwarranted invasion of Iraq... but I'll take them over Fox or Breitbart or RT or any other propaganda outlet disguising itself as a news organization any day.  Btw it's the NY Times that broke the Weinstein story, not any of the previously-named organizations.  (And Fox, of course, is riddled with its own culture of sexual harassment.)

[Guy Berger]

5 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

Not really surprised, though, that something so endemic to our culture would manifest itself in the jazz world and a jazz-education institution.  The bigger surprise would be if that weren't the case [...] There's a ton of gender injustice in jazz's past, and a considerable amount still in effect today, but I also think there's a much higher level of consciousness emerging about it...and the young musicians I know today are of no mind to put up with it, either.    

Perfectly stated.

[ghost of miles]

3 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

   Sir....you have indeed been sold a bill of goods.....endemic to our culture.....REALLY !!!......as if all women are all these sweet , little innocent flowers sugar and spice and everything nice and men are these predatory lecherous beasts.  You sound like your full of mangina, third wave feminist BS.  As Dmitry said, I don't believe a damned thing the MSM says, and if they are telling the truth it's for nefarious purposes. So you guys need to stop your virtue signaling fronting.

I'm a permament-wave feminist, and I've heard way too many stories from women friends, lovers, and relatives about this kind of behavior.  Yes, it is endemic to the culture, despite whatever Trumpian b.s. you've chosen to inhale.  "Virtue-signaling," eh?  If that's what you chose to call sustaining a standard that men need to be a part of upholding, so be it. Have you actually talked to any young female jazz artists who've been subjected to this?  I have, and they didn't tell me via the "MSM."

Edited November 9, 2017 by ghost of miles

[clifford_thornton]

3 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

   Sir....you have indeed been sold a bill of goods.....endemic to our culture.....REALLY !!!......as if all women are all these sweet , little innocent flowers sugar and spice and everything nice and men are these predatory lecherous beasts.  You sound like your full of mangina, third wave feminist BS.  As Dmitry said, I don't believe a damned thing the MSM says, and if they are telling the truth it's for nefarious purposes. So you guys need to stop your virtue signaling fronting.

that's a very trollish comment. Why throw feminism under the bus?

[JSngry]

I'm seeing some weakenedass intellects on display here. Weak or else already drunk on that Kool-Aid.

I expect a reliable journalistic outlet to quote accurately. If it's got that " " around it, it should be accurate (including a ( ) around all paraphrased or otherwise not exact statement). But context is an endlessly unfolding arc, so I own my own responsibility to dig deeper/further as needed and/or desired.

This whole "don't believe anything the MSM has to say" is pretty much total bullshit, a diversionary projectionistic discombobulation tactic used to further an agenda at least as "menacing" as the one its purveyors purport to be against. "Don't believe ANYTHING unless you hear it from me", I mean, my god, how fucked-up batshit crazy zombie acquiescence zonetrance is THAT?

Osby does not deny what he said, so I guess we should believe that he said it. Problem, officer? Not too much of a disconnect, I should hope. Point A to Point B.

If somebody tells you an outright lie, call their shit on it long and loud. But if it's greater context you want, think for yourself, and accept all facts for what they are - data points. And there's always more data points. always.

So think, motherfuckers, THINK.

 

[rostasi]

Yeah, I'm totally with the above statement.
One of the keys above that unlocks the door
to reasonableness is the "my own responsibility
to dig deeper/further as needed and/or desired."
I know older people can't find their keys sometimes,
but, damn, we're dealing with doors to events that
even Monty Hall wouldn't be able to reveal (with or
without Carol Merrill).

[jlhoots]

Anger toward women rears its "head". Whew!!!

[ghost of miles]

3 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

  I am not trolling.......with the musical acumen that is supposedly on this board,,  I expected a little more critical thinking skills to be on display here, and if you don't know by now what feminism or third wave feminism is and what it is intended to do,  I can't help you.

 

 Sir, if you as a man are a feminist, you need to be taken out and publicly horsewhipped and then be taught what real GAME is as far as the govt. giving women power to cry sexual assault at a whim without no proof.  I'm calling out BS on this article in particular because of what motivates the MSM to publish such whether the allegations are true or not is irrelevant. 

Yep, I'm a man and I'm a feminist--not contradictory at all, if one applies "a little more critical thinking skills."  Blame Alan Alda, who hopelessly corrupted me when I was a child into believing that masculine identity and a belief in gender equality were not somehow diametrically opposed or dangerously oblivious to the "war-between-the-sexes" paradigm to which you seem to subscribe, or that being a feminist somehow undermined a man's sense of strength and confidence.  (Also, more power to Awful Terrible Really Really Bad third-wave feminism.)

"The govt giving women power to cry sexual assault at a whim without proof?"  What?  People can and do get in legal trouble for false rape accusations, which constitute a very small percentage of rape and sexual harassment accusations in general.  Or maybe the dozens and dozens of "me too" posts I saw in my Facebook feed recently were all imaginary, or vicious anti-man fabrications. 

Oh, and fuck ANY dynamic wherein a dominant class of people--white men in the case of America and European countries--benefit from and maintain power at the expense of those who don't share their race and gender.  And fuck any dynamic wherein one's sense of strength comes only from dominating somebody else on the basis of gender and/or race.   

Edited November 10, 2017 by ghost of miles

[Larry Kart]

A post by a female 41-year-old friend of my son:

Reading about Louis CK (who I’ve admittedly adored,) Moore, and Spacey. Gah.

From my understanding, most of the people I know manage not to masturbate in front of their co-workers. Most, as far as I know, of my thirty and forty-something peers somehow get through adulthood without trying to date, grope, drug, or throw their bodies on top of teenagers. 99% of my managers who were into women (and I have had more jobs than you) have not harassed me, fondled me, or tried to convince me to massage them. None have gotten off into plants in front of me. This is not magic. It is not because of a lack of dark and quiet spaces, levels of sobriety, what was worn, or power differentials. It’s because the majority of adults have a modicum of self control and understand consent.

So can we get past the “horny, can’t help myself” “boys will be boys” narrative? We’re all sexual beings. We all are pulsating with desire. And we all f*** up or misread situations from time-to-time.

But when things happen repeatedly. When using power for sexual exploits happens repeatedly, they know what they’re doing (see current President’s explanation of how his power allowed him to kiss, grope and grab the pussy of strangers for reference.)

It’s rooted in a jacked up sense entitlement that justifies a lack of control. And it gives desire a bad name. That is not ok.

[HutchFan]

Troll.

[ghost of miles]

2 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

    No,  it is more anger towards the men in power that have enacted laws that give women virtually unlimited power to destroy every man she comes in contact with.

 

   Yes and it is these same dominant ruling class white men that have given women all this power these last 50 years(biased child support courts favoring women and no fault divorce laws) and have profited and benefited from it. And it's you dumb middle class white men that co-sign and enforce this feminist narrative talking points because ultimately you want feminine approval so bad that your willing to cut off your own head to get it, even though fundamentally you really don't give a shit about women IMHO.

You're starting to sound borderline -misogynistic, dude. Not sure why you're so insistent on personalizing this debate, and you have no clue at all about me--nor, evidently, about what many women have to deal with in this culture. "IMHO" equals "In My Horse#*%@ Opinion," I can tell you that much regarding your statement above. Not sure what the issue would be with no-fault divorce laws either, unless one is of the opinion that women become the property of the men they marry. (Encoded in the patriarchal tradition of the woman taking the man's last name... One of those widely-accepted commonplaces that upon closer examination merits a genuine WTF?)

2 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

 

  I'm calling out BS on all these so-called facebook  posts as well which were not necessarily anti-man fabrications, but more than likely attention whores wanting something(What, I don't know). If I was so called sexually assaulted(that could mean most anything nowadays).I wouldn't be on social media mouthing off about it.  Sir, I don't know what country your from but I would like to believe that your not that naïve.

"Attention whores?" On behalf of only the many women I know who posted "Me too" after suffering in silence to various degrees for many years, go back to your cave. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by ghost of miles

[JSngry]

Hey, I know that men can easily be horndog seed spillers and that women can be flirtations conniving honeypots, I mean, that's not a question not, that's never been a question.

But that's not the question in question here, which is simply, wow, some Berkeley dude got fired because he hit on a student, was too drunk to get it up, but apparently not too drunk to pass out before he continued to make unwanted advances, as well as Greg Osby got let go, and readlly did say some ignunt ass bullshit.

To the drunk/limp guy, hey, I've know literally hundreds of people like that. You can't get rid of them, even as they try their damndest to get rid of themselves.

As for Osby...I always preferred Steve Coleman, then, and, especially now.

As for me and my "mangina" or whatever that word was, I keep it clean and I keep it handy. It serves me well. It has given a wife, and then children who have had children of their own, and none of them have yet to be people who don't know how to act.

A little more mangina and a lot less dickhead, please.
 

[ep1str0phy]

Having not participated in a forum discussion with this degree of heat for some time, I'm (only sort-of) bemused by all this. Not a knock on OP, obviously, or really/necessarily any single poster here, but this reads to an outside observer like a baldfaced political debate. I admit that this probably isn't the proper place for meta commentary on board culture, but I've noticed quite a bit of covert politicization on here as of late--and yeah, understandably so, because interpersonal tension tends to roil over into even the most mundane things, and yesterday's mundane things (like casual internet commentary) seem to have become some kind of potshot-y battleground for the nation's soul.

This thread may not be the best example, because the topic is inherently heated--but it hasn't escaped notice that folks have been using seemingly lackadaisical discussion as a vehicle for espousing sociopolitical rhetoric (and thereby, weirdly, attempting to contravene some kind of systematized strangulation of values). The funny thing to me is that the larger body of commentators here comprise the same few--and maybe I'm stretching here--demographically homogenous people who were having civil conversations about Mosaic sets and Lou Donaldson discographies maybe one or two years ago.

Not that I'm saying that we should resist this kind of discussion, since it's a healthy part of the jazz and greater cultural narrative, but there's a bizarre, bitter irony in the regularization of culture warring on a jazz forum--in an era where the broader cultural resonance of the music is greatly diminished. 

[Dmitry]

18 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

Why would the Boston Globe have any interest in "WILLINGLY AND EAGERLY" f'ing up Greg Osby's career?  He's all but unknown outside of the jazz world.  

Why would the Atlanta Journal Constitution, New York Post, CNN and others fabricate stories about Richard Jewell? 

Why would the Rolling Stone concoct the UVa fraternity rape story?

The Duke Lacrosse case? Media was all over that.

Why they do it? Because they only dream of ratings and copies sold? Because in this country the libel laws are much more lax than elsewhere? Hell if I knew, but the combination of these two is a powerful stimulant.

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dmitry

[bluesoul]

9 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

   Yes and it is these same dominant ruling class white men that have given women all this power these last 50 years(biased child support courts favoring women and no fault divorce laws) and have profited and benefited from it. And it's you dumb middle class white men that co-sign and enforce this feminist narrative talking points because ultimately you want feminine approval so bad that your willing to cut off your own head to get it, even though fundamentally you really don't give a shit about women IMHO.

 

This would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.  Sorry your life sucks so bad dude. 

[rostasi]

10 hours ago, bigbandrecord said:

 IMHO.

Actually, this was the funniest part.