What would you ask Chick Corea?

[JSngry]

ACTING!!!!

[Pim]

Well I cant believe anyone would actually believe all that Scientology nonsense but how should that restrain me from listening to his music. It’s his own (rather silly) choice isn’t it? Did he hurt people with it? That’s a sincere question maybe there are facts I don’t know about

Edited September 15 by Pim

[Pim]

6 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I can feel with you. I am close to selling most of my Miles Davis albums as I find much of his behaviour disgusting, and can't ignore it while listening. Same witn Freddie Hubbard after reading he attempted to rape Jane Getz. 

That’s a serious accusation. Where did you read that? Can’t find anything on the web?

[JSngry]

Scientology is considered religion by some, cult by others, so let's observe board guidelines about that. It's a nasty can of worms and this ain't where we go fishing for that.

[Pim]

I see what you mean Jim. I don’t want the debate whether it’s a religion or a cult nor what it’s all about. I was just asking why it would be a reason to ‘cancel’ an artist only for believing in something ridiculous… plus the question if there was something worse I am not aware of

[Niko]

6 hours ago, Pim said:

That’s a serious accusation. Where did you read that? Can’t find anything on the web?

On spotify and similar platforms you can find a track called "Ready for Freddy" by Kama Ruby with spoken words by Jane Getz where she tells the story in great detail (the attempted rape is around the 10 minute mark but the rest about sitting in with Jackie McLean at Smalls etc etc is, of course, also interesting)

[Pim]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

On spotify and similar platforms you can find a track called "Ready for Freddy" by Kama Ruby with spoken words by Jane Getz where she tells the story in great detail (the attempted rape is around the 10 minute mark but the rest about sitting in with Jackie McLean at Smalls etc etc is, of course, also interesting)

Ah I see thanks will definitely give it a listen. I must say these cases are very difficult as there is no possibility for Hubbard to defend himself. We'll never know if this is what really happened, but if it did happen that would be horrible and would change my look on Freddie Hubbard for ever.

[mikeweil]

11 hours ago, Pim said:

That’s a serious accusation. Where did you read that? Can’t find anything on the web?

https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B00LV8STE4/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=9533TPHO4PI4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.IdSZ0cY66eswKEgeweMG59QGxs27OcxRz9xi08LN1oXLfgemq4iUYHIWIDHDYNMA7BOeF69Z2O8NvoKxP4iZeCw-HA_V_bHNBuZAvHxG_3Q.jeRy8ug_MaECCSsxXNtoHHPPzL7TAATgpIzxRJcss14&dib_tag=se&keywords=jane+getz&qid=1726417383&s=books&sprefix=jane+getz%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C206&sr=1-1

2 hours ago, Pim said:

 .... but if it did happen that would be horrible and would change my look on Freddie Hubbard for ever.

That's what it did with me! She writes frankly about her experiences on the scene. Lots about all the big dogs she met and played with, Herbie Mann, Stan Getz, Charles Mingus, and lots of other people she met and befriended, Henry Grimes (who was a close friend), Joe Chambers (whom she dated) etc. A view from the inside, positive and negative. 

Edited September 15 by mikeweil

[Pim]

44 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B00LV8STE4/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=9533TPHO4PI4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.IdSZ0cY66eswKEgeweMG59QGxs27OcxRz9xi08LN1oXLfgemq4iUYHIWIDHDYNMA7BOeF69Z2O8NvoKxP4iZeCw-HA_V_bHNBuZAvHxG_3Q.jeRy8ug_MaECCSsxXNtoHHPPzL7TAATgpIzxRJcss14&dib_tag=se&keywords=jane+getz&qid=1726417383&s=books&sprefix=jane+getz%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C206&sr=1-1

That's what it did with me! She writes frankly about her experiences on the scene. Lots about all the big dogs she met and played with, Herbie Mann, Stan Getz, Charles Mingus, and lots of other people she met and befriended, Henry Grimes (who was a close friend), Joe Chambers (whom she dated) etc. A view from the inside, positive and negative. 

Thanks Mike that looks like an interesting book! Wasn’t aware of its existence so definitely going on the wantlist. But this leaves one question of course: does the fact that we tells it happened make it true? Again: if it did it would be horrifying. But is one witness statement enough to fully judge someone…

[JSngry]

Be aware that most of the book concerns her post-jazz career.

Dannie Richmond comes off quite favorably!

[T.D.]

I got that book via Kindle 2 or 3 years ago. It's not great by literary standards, but interesting and probably worth a look from jazz fans.

 

The Freddie stuff is in there iirc. ISTR Walter Booker came off particularly badly, as well.

Edited September 15 by T.D.

[Niko]

4 hours ago, Pim said:

Ah I see thanks will definitely give it a listen. I must say these cases are very difficult as there is no possibility for Hubbard to defend himself. We'll never know if this is what really happened, but if it did happen that would be horrible and would change my look on Freddie Hubbard for ever.

I guess that spoken word thing is her reading the relevant passage from her autobiography... of course, we can never know for certain... but she really doesn't come across as someone who would get a kick out of inventing a highly detailed Freddie Hubbard anecdote just to grab attention... and she doesn't say anywhere that you should stop listening to your Freddie Hubbard records... she does come across as someone who knows perfectly well that she could be sued for libel and decided the risks were negligible... she also mentions witnesses in her story like Henry Grimes who was still alive at the time the book came out... what she does say is that after this incident she stopped seeing her future as a star on the NY jazz scene or the jazz scene overall... look at the start she had, working with John Handy, Pony Poindexter, Pharoah Sanders, Mingus, Grant Green, Jackie McLean, Freddie Hubbard and others ... I had actually wondered myself earlier what had made her quit that scene... children I'd assumed... turns out that it was what we would nowadays call a toxic or hostile environment... and there's a reason why we say that nowadays

[soulpope]

17 hours ago, Niko said:

I guess that spoken word thing is her reading the relevant passage from her autobiography... of course, we can never know for certain... but she really doesn't come across as someone who would get a kick out of inventing a highly detailed Freddie Hubbard anecdote just to grab attention... and she doesn't say anywhere that you should stop listening to your Freddie Hubbard records... she does come across as someone who knows perfectly well that she could be sued for libel and decided the risks were negligible... she also mentions witnesses in her story like Henry Grimes who was still alive at the time the book came out... what she does say is that after this incident she stopped seeing her future as a star on the NY jazz scene or the jazz scene overall... look at the start she had, working with John Handy, Pony Poindexter, Pharoah Sanders, Mingus, Grant Green, Jackie McLean, Freddie Hubbard and others ... I had actually wondered myself earlier what had made her quit that scene... children I'd assumed... turns out that it was what we would nowadays call a toxic or hostile environment... and there's a reason why we say that nowadays

Interesting thoughts/point of view ....

[mikeweil]

18 hours ago, JSngry said:

Be aware that most of the book concerns her post-jazz career.

The book covers her career up to the point where she quit jazz!

I do not see any reason to not believe her. So far seemingly objected to her book's contents.

Edited September 16 by mikeweil

[Pim]

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

The book covers her career up to the point where she quit jazz!

I do not see any reason to not believe her. So far seemingly objected to her book's contents.

Okay. So if someone says it happened, it happened. That’s pretty naive. There are plenty of motives to lie about such things and it happens a lot. I think it’s a healthy conception to say it might have happened or might not have happened and that we will never be sure.

[clifford_thornton]

In these kinds of situations, I think it's wise to believe women. So much of this shit happens to this day, and I'm not surprised. Would I toss my Freddie (or Miles) LPs because of it? No, but I think one has to realize that artists can be some fucked up people.

[Pim]

Wow I am stunned that people are prepared to believe such a heavy accusation by just ‘because she tells so’ and with arguments like it’s best to believe woman in these cases. What if it does appear to be a lie, which isn’t realistic. Really I could understand the whole sentiment that the perpetrator of such a crime should hang, but by rule of law every person is still innocent till proven otherwise.
 

I happen to know a guy, a high school friend I don’t see a lot anymore , who was accused by a jealous ex girlfriend. After all he was acquitted and the woman in question was even convicted for defamation but she reached her goal: she destroyed him. He lost everything and the whole thing still hunts him. 
 

I wonder if there are more stories like this about Freddie Hubbard? That would make it definitely more likely.

Edited September 16 by Pim

[JSngry]

One incontestable fact remains...

 

[gvopedz]

21 minutes ago, Pim said:

Wow I am stunned that people are prepared to believe such a heavy accusation by just ‘because she tells so’ and with arguments like it’s best to believe woman in these cases.

In the “Ready for Freddy” recording, Jane Getz says she called Henry Grimes after the alleged assault.  So presumably Grimes saw the scratches, bruises and welts that Getz says were on her body.  So…maybe, perhaps weeks or years after the alleged assault, Grimes wrote down what he saw, perhaps in some oblique statement; and, maybe again, some historian can find what Grimes wrote in the “Henry Grimes Papers”:

https://archives.nypl.org/mus/29957

 

[clifford_thornton]

Men rape and assault women. It's sadly common and probably was even more prevalent (though less talked about) 50+ years ago. I don't know why this is so hard to believe. We have a pretty good idea that sexual manipulation and abuse is partly why Jutta Hipp quit the scene; seems to be a possibility for Jane Getz, too, though she remained musically active.

[Niko]

2 hours ago, Pim said:

Wow I am stunned that people are prepared to believe such a heavy accusation by just ‘because she tells so’ and with arguments like it’s best to believe woman in these cases. What if it does appear to be a lie, which isn’t realistic. Really I could understand the whole sentiment that the perpetrator of such a crime should hang, but by rule of law every person is still innocent till proven otherwise.
 

I happen to know a guy, a high school friend I don’t see a lot anymore , who was accused by a jealous ex girlfriend. After all he was acquitted and the woman in question was even convicted for defamation but she reached her goal: she destroyed him. He lost everything and the whole thing still hunts him. 
 

I wonder if there are more stories like this about Freddie Hubbard? That would make it definitely more likely.

have you read her story or listened to it? It's not like that incident made it into the blurb describing the book or that she tried to get anything out of it - at least not that I know of.... I wouldn't generalize to all women always, but this case here just seems totally plausible... I mean, if she would have wanted to do the maximum possible damage to Hubbard with a fairy tale, she would have changed a few things (like not wait until he's dead, make the attempted rape a rape, and replace Henry Grimes by Scott Holt or some other person that was no longer available at the time of writing). And now you can say that this was all strategic... but that is the point where you need to find more evidence that her book is unreliable. In addition, it's not like she has an obligation to identify other victims with similar stories before she can talk about something in her autobiography. His family could have sued... but maybe they thought the story was plausible, too. 

[Pim]

2 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

Men rape and assault women. It's sadly common and probably was even more prevalent (though less talked about) 50+ years ago. I don't know why this is so hard to believe. We have a pretty good idea that sexual manipulation and abuse is partly why Jutta Hipp quit the scene; seems to be a possibility for Jane Getz, too, though she remained musically active.

Yes they do. It’s a huge problem and way more common with men than with woman. The whole me too discussion made very clear how big this problem is. I can’t remember denying this anywhere as this was not what we were talking about Clifford. We were discussing the particular Hubbard/Gets case. Now in that case the men are rapists, Freddie was a man so he was probably a rapist argument is what I call a false argument and ignoring my other arguments isn’t fair as well. 

all we are doing here is interpreting, interpreting and interpreting. Her story sounds plausible, it sounds sincere, it was too late to harm Hubbard so it must be true. We assume she might stopped her career because of it. Who are we to decide. We didn’t knew Getz, we didn’t knew Hubbard, we weren’t around. Who are we to judge? These cases could be very complicated.  We simply can’t judge if it’s plausible or not. It really seems to be a phenomenon of this time that everybody has an opinion on everything and just state that that’s the way it is without any evidence nor real arguments. With just some information from an interview, newspaper or a book as ‘hard evidence’. 

I am probably not going to convince anyone around here and I am surprised to see that I stand alone in this case. I could only say that if this story is true, I feel incredibly sorry for Jane Getz that she became the billionth victim of a man that couldn’t control himself. 

Edited September 16 by Pim

[clifford_thornton]

sure, there are grey areas and incomplete stories around sexual violence and I would never argue with that. But I find it hard to doubt the basic framework in a story of someone who was assaulted. And yeah, Getz & Grimes' closeness has been documented -- they left for California together in 1966 -- so maybe he wrote it down somewhere. 

and not to pile upon Hubbard, but at the very least his drinking and cocaine use, and penchant for being rather 'out of it', are fairly well-established. Not that alcoholism/cocaine use equal sexual abuser, but people hopped up on shit do some very uncool things.

[Niko]

Getz makes it clear that Hubbard wasn't sober in the relevant moment... she also appears on some of Grimes' first recordings after his return in 2004... btw, she is still quite active on Facebook... and I don't think I want to be sober when she and Clifford talk politics... 

[clifford_thornton]

I don't do Facebook. No politics on this board but I'm pretty far left of the dial, so take that as you will.

back to the original title of the thread, I'd ask him about Al Levitt.