"Lee Morgan" (Last Blue Note Album) question

[mikeweil]

On the second track of Lee Morgan's self-titled last double LP for Blue Note, "In What Direction Are You Headed", there is a solo on the musical saw, played by Reggie Workman. When I wanted to replace my LP copy with the CD reissue I noticed they had remixed that track - the saw track's volume was faded down, making it almost inaudible and leaving behind rhythm section tracks of electric piano (Harold Mabern), bass (Jymie Merritt), and drums (Freddie Waits), that sound a bit empty without the soloist. I wonder why they decided to fade out that solo, I think it adds an eerie atmosphere to that section of the track,

Anyway - is tthere a CD reissue leaving the saw solo intact? I have the Japanese TOCJ-1632, and IIRC the Blue Note CD  4-93401-2 was the same, saw-less version. Any alternatives for my noisy LP copy?

Edited September 8, 2017 by mikeweil

[Rooster_Ties]

By any chance, is there a YouTube upload of the LP version? With the saw; I've never heard it. Or some other streaming source? Thx!

[JSngry]

Starts around 12:10 or so.

Don't know if that's a LP or not...sounds like the mix, but not the surface noise. I've got a clean-ish copy, but have never heard a really minty-fresh clean one.

I think it's just wrong that they would do that to the cut. It's like, ok, Lee's dead now and we know better than him what he wanted his music to sound like. If that's a conscious preissue production choice, I hope to god they at least advertise it as such and not let people go around thinking that that's how the sucker was actually released in its time.

Yeah, this is fucked up:

 

[mikeweil]

19 hours ago, JSngry said:

If that's a conscious reissue production choice, I hope to god they at least advertise it as such and not let people go around thinking that that's how the sucker was actually released in its time.

My Japanese CD copy does not mention they changed the mix of that track, if they had I never would have ordered it. That's what upset me, that they did it without notice. I faintly remember listening in a shop to the US version when it was out but no luck, either ... 

Edited September 8, 2017 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

There are two more recent Japanese CD reissues (TOCJ-6700 and TYCJ-81075), but i have no idea which mix they use. Everybody on the board owning one of them, please check and report!

 

[bertrand]

I think I already brought this up a while back. My assumption was that Bob Belden decided he wanted to mix it down. If that is the case, it is heresy. He has made other such personal choices. It could be a mastering error...

I assumed the Japanese pressings were not affected, but I was wrong.

I thought it was Freddie Waits on the saw.

Bertrand.

[mikeweil]

You think it was Freddie Waits since Roy Brooks played the musical saw, too, right? The liner notes say Waits played drums and recorder, and Reggie Workman was on bass and percussion. Since one of the basses lays out during the saw solo, and the sound of the bass tells you it is Jymie Meritt that plays on, it must be Workman.

Could well be this was discussed here before, but I couldn't find when searching before opening this thread.

[Dub Modal]

On 9/15/2017 at 2:26 PM, bertrand said:

I thought it was Freddie Waits on the saw.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 3:21 PM, mikeweil said:

You think it was Freddie Waits since Roy Brooks played the musical saw, too, right? The liner notes say Waits played drums and recorder, and Reggie Workman was on bass and percussion. Since one of the basses lays out during the saw solo, and the sound of the bass tells you it is Jymie Meritt that plays on, it must be Workman.

Could well be this was discussed here before, but I couldn't find when searching before opening this thread.

Ok, just found this thread after @JSngry put me on notice about this saw solo.

Was it indeed Waits or Workman playing it? I don't think this snafu is widely known is it? If known, it doesn't seem to be much discussed. This may not be Lee's most popular album, so maybe it just hasn't popped up on the radar that frequently...?

Definitely shouldn't have been mixed out, and this is perfect for a reissue remedy with what BN has going on in their current programs.

[JSngry]

Roy Brooks was a saw-reflex thing, sorry.

The liners don't mention a saw at all, but it is Waits' composition. And iirc, he also played saw? Or not?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I thought I read somewhere that Bob Belden mixed it out because he hated it... or was it because Lee hated it? Belden seemed like a pretty straight shooter with regards to the artists' intentions, so it's not like him to do something that the artist didn't want.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Michael Cuscuna has no idea why Bob may have mixed down that saw solo nor does he know who played it.

[Dub Modal]

Interesting.
 

So the only domestic issues that contain the saw solo are the original US LPs and current streaming versions. 

[david weiss]

My memory might be a little fuzzy but I thought the saw solo was edited out completely and that the reasoning was that they needed to cut some time for the 2 LP set to fit onto one CD. Belden was definitely not a fan of the saw solo and I remember him being happy about it being removed. The consensus at the time was that the saw was played by Waits. 

[felser]

25 minutes ago, david weiss said:

My memory might be a little fuzzy but I thought the saw solo was edited out completely and that the reasoning was that they needed to cut some time for the 2 LP set to fit onto one CD. Belden was definitely not a fan of the saw solo and I remember him being happy about it being removed. The consensus at the time was that the saw was played by Waits. 

Less than 67 minutes, so running time shouldn't have been an issue.  I can live with or without the saw solo.

Lee Morgan – The Last Session

Label:	Blue Note – 7243 4 93401 2 1
Format:	CD, Album, Reissue, Remastered
Country:	Europe
Released:	1998
Genre:	Jazz
Style:	Modal, Hard Bop

Tracklist

Hide Credits

1		Capra Black Composed By – B. Harper* Composed By – B. Harper*	15:32
2		In What Direction Are You Headed Composed By – H. Mabern* Composed By – H. Mabern*	16:20
3		Angela Composed By – J. Merritt* Composed By – J. Merritt*	6:24
4		Croquet Ballet Composed By – B. Harper* Composed By – B. Harper*	10:57
5		Inner Passions Out Composed By – F. Waits* Composed By – F. Waits*	17:34

[bertrand]

9 hours ago, bresna said:

I thought I read somewhere that Bob Belden mixed it out because he hated it... or was it because Lee hated it? Belden seemed like a pretty straight shooter with regards to the artists' intentions, so it's not like him to do something that the artist didn't want.

How would Belden have known whether Lee liked it or not? If it was Belden who is responsible, it was his decision and his alone.

[Rooster_Ties]

41 minutes ago, felser said:

I can live with or without the saw solo.

17:34

I feel the same way, probably because I don’t think I ever heard it until I saw this thread (or maybe some similar thread we had around here) — I’ve only ever had the most common US CD issue.

It is interesting, and I’m not anti-saw as a general rule — see also the Khachaturian piano concerto…

http://www.singende-saege.com/khachaturian-piano-concerto.html

…but in this case (with the Lee Morgan), I don’t miss it because I never knew it that way in the first place.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Rooster_Ties

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

My memory might be a little fuzzy but I thought the saw solo was edited out completely and that the reasoning was that they needed to cut some time for the 2 LP set to fit onto one CD. Belden was definitely not a fan of the saw solo and I remember him being happy about it being removed. The consensus at the time was that the saw was played by Waits. 

There were no edits for time purposes. The saw solo is there, just mixed way down and mostly what you hear is rather monotonous comping on the electric piano.

It is obvious now that this was Belden's decision and a bad one at that, pity he did not ask for a second opinion. He had a tendency to overstep his role as a reissue producer, especially when it came to Miles Davis and Teo Macero. The most egregious example was his declaring there were no alternates of interest for Bitches' Brew. Later, an alternate of the song John McLaughlin surfaced with Miles and Wayne, who laid out on the issued take. How is that not 'of interest'?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by bertrand

[sonnymax]

I have the 2014 Blue Note TYCJ-81075 reissue. The saw solo is there, loud and proud. I'm not a fan, but I agree with the originalists here. I especially dislike the echo effect, although the end result makes it sound like whales, whom I do like.  

[romualdo]

6 hours ago, sonnymax said:

I have the 2014 Blue Note TYCJ-81075 reissue. The saw solo is there, loud and proud. I'm not a fan, but I agree with the originalists here. I especially dislike the echo effect, although the end result makes it sound like whales, whom I do like.  

I have the same copy, it's a SHM CD - the saw solo is plain as day (very prominent) running from 12:30 to 14:00 - so this disc hasn't been tweaked - i really dig the saw sound btw

https://www.discogs.com/release/7081273-Lee-Morgan-Lee-Morgan

Wonder who is actually playing this as there are dms/perc audible behind the saw  (Reggie Workman is listed as playing perc also)

[bertrand]

Can someone hook me up with an MP3 of the track with the saw solo audible?

[romualdo]

24 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Can someone hook me up with an MP3 of the track with the saw solo audible?

sure, are you on messenger?

 

[bertrand]

8 hours ago, romualdo said:

sure, are you on messenger?

 

Do you mean the private messenger here on Organissimo or Facebook Messenger? I use both.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

12 hours ago, bertrand said:

Can someone hook me up with an MP3 of the track with the saw solo audible?

This YouTube video has the saw solo in full:

 

[bertrand]

7 hours ago, bresna said:

This YouTube video has the saw solo in full:

 

I have heard it since I have the LP I got at a yard sale for $4. That is how I knew that something was missing when I got the CD.

In this case, I believe Blue Note sold me a defective product, and getting an MP3 of the proper track is just compensation. I will not buy another CD. It is like the Monk Palo Alto deal. Do it right the first time.

 

[romualdo]

11 hours ago, bertrand said:

Do you mean the private messenger here on Organissimo or Facebook Messenger? I use both.

facebook messenger - if you search for me as Stephen Platt (Queensland, Australia)