Is this legit?

[Larry Kart]

On pianist Yoko Miwa's recent album "Pathways," she plays an original of hers, "Lickety Split." However, as you can hear below, it incorporates wholesale Rollins' "Pent-Up House," without any acknowledgment or co-composer credit given. Is this legit? To be clear, this is not a quote in the course of improvising; it's built into the composition.
 

 

[Trumpet Guy]

Sounds like McCoy's "Inception" !

[Larry Kart]

4 hours ago, Trumpet Guy said:

Sounds like McCoy's "Inception" !

Yes, some -- but I see there's this in a 9/17 Down Beat piece about Miwa:

"Miwa’s original compositions are equally capacious. The theme of “Lickety Split” follows the rhythmic pattern of Sonny Rollins’ “Pent-Up House,” but the piece soon veers into wide-open harmonic and rhythmic vistas that suggest McCoy Tyner. 

"Capacious" is good. And throughout the album she sure sounds a lot like early Tyner.

[Larry Kart]

On 8/15/2017 at 1:27 PM, Trumpet Guy said:

Sounds like McCoy's "Inception" !

Yes, some -- but I see that Miwa in an interview says that it was "Pent-Up House."

Response from Miwa:

"The theme of "Lickety Split" follows the rhythmic pattern of Sonny Rollins' "Pent-up House". Sonny's tune is in a major key and Lickety Split is in a minor key although it follows the rhythmic motif of Pent Up House. The form is also extended, Pent Up House is a 16 measure form and Lickety Split is 24 measures not to mention there is a recurring interlude. It's simply not accurate to credit Sonny Rollins as a co-composer. There's a very similar example from McCoy Tyners' composition "Inception" on one of his first albums. I've got nothing but love for Sonny and want to give him every bit of credit I can which is why I mentioned it in Downbeat but like I said, it wouldn't be accurate to give him co-composition credit in this case. This is a common tradition in jazz, there are countless examples of this on Blue Note albums.

[Niko]

"there are countless examples of this on Blue Note albums. "

is really the moment where I thought it probably IS legit but I'll leave the listening to others

[JSngry]

It's extra legit if you can do it and have it not really matter.

And btw - the comparisons of basic impulses between "Pent Up House" and "East Broadway Rundown" are ones I've not yet heard/seen but personally do feel.

[AllenLowe]

I will dissent; it is a ripoff and extremely dishonest.

seriously, whoever her record company is, they are idiots. And if I were Sonny she would receive a letter from my lawyer,

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

I am sorta amazed that nobody agrees with me. This is really gross thievery.

[David Ayers]

There's blame on both sides.

 

[Daniel A]

On many sides, many sides...

[JSngry]

"Lickety Split" is part of the punch line to a really crude joke, I'd have named the song something else.

[Larry Kart]

16 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I will dissent; it is a ripoff and extremely dishonest.

seriously, whoever her record company is, they are idiots. And if I were Sonny she would receive a letter from my lawyer,

 

Don't want to get on a moral crusade here -- all I can say is that when I first heard that track, the presence of that "quote" startled me. As for Sonny himself, if his late wife Lucille were still around, Ms. Miwa probably would be toast.

Further, could someone enlighten me with an example or two of what Miwa meant when she said, "This is a common tradition in jazz, there are countless examples of this on Blue Note albums." The first half of that sentence I kind of get -- originals based on other originals, not tunes based on standards -- but not to my recollection would-be original tunes that swallow up wholesale chunks of other original tunes and then go their own way, with the swallowed-up chunks sticking right out of the fabric. Also, I don't get the second half of that sentence at all. What examples from Blue Note albums? I ask that last in all ignorance/innocence; nothing comes to my mind.

In any case, Miwa is not without talent IMO.

[JSngry]

 

As for Yoko Miwa, don't know, don't care. I listened to that clip and maybe made it out of the head before yawning and shutting it off. I'm sure people have thier reasons for actively engaging in that type of playing, but I don't.

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

As for Yoko Miwa, don't know, don't care. I listened to that clip and maybe made it out of the head before yawning and shutting it off. I'm sure people have thier reasons for actively engaging in that type of playing, but I don't.

Contrary to what I said above, I don't care about Miwa's music either. Guess I just felt compelled to throw her a bone because I'd hocked at her the way I did. Life can be like that.

[Big Beat Steve]

15 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I am sorta amazed that nobody agrees with me. This is really gross thievery.

Isn't there a saying that copying is the highest form of flattery in Asia?

[AllenLowe]

she's a thief. Plain and simple.

Edited August 19, 2017 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Most people are in some form or fashion.

And once the soloing starts, there's no reference whatsoever, it's a totally different form.

However, if anybody should be sending a message via litigation thretigation, it's McCoy (as was noted up higher in the thread, but not fully noticed). That piece is a LOT closer to this than it is to "Pent Up House".

 

So, not a thief, just studiously unimaginative. That's worse, imo.

[paul secor]

Mingus said it well: "If Charlie Parker Were a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats").

[JSngry]

And now he's dead too.

[AllenLowe]

I once wrote a blues which I thought was really slick, but then I realized it was Pompton Turnpike. I did the right thing and tossed it in the garbage.

[JSngry]

Yeah, well you've got imagination. Apples and oranges.