BFT160 - Discussion

[tkeith]

BFT160 for July is available for download and listening online.  It's got a range from easy IDs to impossible (mostly the former, IMHO).  I won't be around most of tomorrow so I wanted to get this up and ready to go.  Have at it at will.  And, I just want to tell you good luck. We're all counting on you.

 

http://thomkeith.net/index.php/blindfold-tests/

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by tkeith

[tkeith]

Diggin' track 01 myself right now!

[felser]

Great listen start to finish.  #3 and #5 are right up one of my alleys, and #8 and #10 are right up another of my alleys.  I imagine I have #'s 1,8, and 10 on my shelves, and I am sure I know #8, but my brain is in a pretty addled state right now.  Looking forward to the reveals, and #8 (and maybe #10) will come to me when I am thinking more clearly.  Not sure if #8 is a Bobby Watson comp originally done with the Jazz Messengers?

[tkeith]

7 hours ago, felser said:

Great listen start to finish.  #3 and #5 are right up one of my alleys, and #8 and #10 are right up another of my alleys.  I imagine I have #'s 1,8, and 10 on my shelves, and I am sure I know #8, but my brain is in a pretty addled state right now.  Looking forward to the reveals, and #8 (and maybe #10) will come to me when I am thinking more clearly.  Not sure if #8 is a Bobby Watson comp originally done with the Jazz Messengers?

I'll be surprised if you have #1.  

The alleys in your neighborhood make me want to visit.  

#8 predates Watson, but given the personnel, I'd think there has to be some sort of Messenger tie-in somewhere along the line.  If not, there is most certainly both a strong Blue Note connection and connections to just about every other major 'school' of the music.  

[mjzee]

Track 1: Quartet.  Strong tenor, perhaps came of age before the 60’s because he didn’t go out during his solo.  Must be someone of some renown, because it sounds like a bootleg recording.  Drummer driving things.  I’d say Blakey except Blakey never kept such a rock solid beat…maybe Philly Joe because of those little fills he does.  Confirmation just might be my favorite Bird tune.  Very enjoyable performance.  

 

Track 2: I’m guessing Herbie Mann with Miroslav Vitous, somewhere around the late ’60’s.  Light and airy.

 

Track 3: “Burry” trombone.  Spends a lot of time making his point.  Roswell Rudd?  Sax does the same.  Art Ensemble?  Bassist relegated to a drone…too bad.

 

Track 4: New Orleans drums, then guitar trio (guitarist sounds a little like Scofield), then other instruments enter.  Buzz in the background makes me think this is a private recording?  Bari sounds contemplative.  Trumpeter not on the same level, either in tone or concept.  Other than the trumpeter, I liked it.

 

Track 5: Joe Henderson?  I like the color the vibes brings, but wish the vibist was more assertive.  A tentative bass clarinetist…really?  Be big or go home.  The rhythm section is probably the best thing about this track.

 

Track 6: Wayne Shorter influence in the writing.  I always do like congas in the ensemble.  Time signatures make me think early 70’s.  Sounds like Curtis Fuller on trombone.  

 

Track 7: Sounds like Wayne Shorter on soprano and Herbie on piano.  

 

Track 8: Sounds like an L.A. big band from the late ’60’s - right from the date where they backed The 5th Dimension on Up Up And Away.  Sounds like that anyway…  I don’t know many of those bands, so I’m going to guess Woody Herman.

 

Track 9: Strong tenor.  Guitar lends some nice color; strong drums too.  Still, it’s the tenor’s showcase all the way.  Fun sound, but I wish the track went somewhere.

 

Track 10: Interesting track.  The musicians are itching to go out, but something restrains them.  Is there a tension between the grooving bassist and the impatient pianist?  Is this one of those Pharaoh Sanders things on Theresa?  Nice tune.

 

Track 11: This might be my favorite track on the BFT.  Happy music, thoughtful playing, well recorded.  No clue who it might be.

 

Thanks for posting!  I’ll be looking forward to the reveal.

Edited July 4, 2017 by mjzee

[hgweber]

haven't found much time to listen yet, but 1 is dexter gordon playing confirmation. europe, mid or late sixties? no clue about the rhythm section. doesn't sound like tootie or riel on drums. never heard this before. outtakes from montmartre?

[felser]

6 hours ago, hgweber said:

haven't found much time to listen yet, but 1 is dexter gordon playing confirmation. europe, mid or late sixties? no clue about the rhythm section. doesn't sound like tootie or riel on drums. never heard this before. outtakes from montmartre?

I agree it sounds like Dex.

[tkeith]

23 hours ago, mjzee said:

Track 1: Quartet.  Strong tenor, perhaps came of age before the 60’s because he didn’t go out during his solo.  Must be someone of some renown, because it sounds like a bootleg recording.  Drummer driving things.  I’d say Blakey except Blakey never kept such a rock solid beat…maybe Philly Joe because of those little fills he does.  Confirmation just might be my favorite Bird tune.  Very enjoyable performance.  

Not Philly Joe, but began in that era.

Quote

Track 2: I’m guessing Herbie Mann with Miroslav Vitous, somewhere around the late ’60’s.  Light and airy.

Time period is correct, but the musicians are not.  You're in the right neighborhood, but a few streets off.

Quote

Track 3: “Burry” trombone.  Spends a lot of time making his point.  Roswell Rudd?  Sax does the same.  Art Ensemble?  Bassist relegated to a drone…too bad.

Not Roswell, but heavy hitters all.

Quote

Track 4: New Orleans drums, then guitar trio (guitarist sounds a little like Scofield), then other instruments enter.  Buzz in the background makes me think this is a private recording?  Bari sounds contemplative.  Trumpeter not on the same level, either in tone or concept.  Other than the trumpeter, I liked it.

Oddly, I would submit the trumpeter is the best musician of the bunch, though my favorite of the bunch is the bassist.

Quote

Track 5: Joe Henderson?  I like the color the vibes brings, but wish the vibist was more assertive.  A tentative bass clarinetist…really?  Be big or go home.  The rhythm section is probably the best thing about this track.

Not Joe.  Later, certainly more out.

Quote

Track 6: Wayne Shorter influence in the writing.  I always do like congas in the ensemble.  Time signatures make me think early 70’s.  Sounds like Curtis Fuller on trombone.  

Not fuller, but I think the trombonist would appreciate the comparison.  A little later than you are thinking.

Quote

Track 7: Sounds like Wayne Shorter on soprano and Herbie on piano.  

Nope.

Quote

Track 8: Sounds like an L.A. big band from the late ’60’s - right from the date where they backed The 5th Dimension on Up Up And Away.  Sounds like that anyway…  I don’t know many of those bands, so I’m going to guess Woody Herman.

A little later.  I think of this band as more centered in NYC, but I get where you'd hear that, as well.

Quote

Track 9: Strong tenor.  Guitar lends some nice color; strong drums too.  Still, it’s the tenor’s showcase all the way.  Fun sound, but I wish the track went somewhere.

 

Track 10: Interesting track.  The musicians are itching to go out, but something restrains them.  Is there a tension between the grooving bassist and the impatient pianist?  Is this one of those Pharaoh Sanders things on Theresa?  Nice tune.

Similar era to the Pharoah stuff, but not him.

Quote

Track 11: This might be my favorite track on the BFT.  Happy music, thoughtful playing, well recorded.  No clue who it might be.

I think this one surprises a lot of people.

Quote

Thanks for posting!  I’ll be looking forward to the reveal.

Thanks for the comments!

========================================================================================

18 hours ago, hgweber said:

haven't found much time to listen yet, but 1 is dexter gordon playing confirmation. europe, mid or late sixties? no clue about the rhythm section. doesn't sound like tootie or riel on drums. never heard this before. outtakes from montmartre?

Not Dex, recording is later than you're hearing it.  I like where your ears took you, though.  mjzee's comments on this track, combined with yours, should put people on the right street.

Edited July 5, 2017 by tkeith
Posts merged against my will.

[hgweber]

yea, maybe a tad too technical for ltd. but so many dexter licks. so is it griffin then? this stuff is hard...

[tkeith]

5 hours ago, hgweber said:

yea, maybe a tad too technical for ltd. but so many dexter licks. so is it griffin then? this stuff is hard...

Not jgriff.  Again, the neighborhood is certainly correct.

 

[SMB1968]

Track 5: Vandermark ?

[Hot Ptah]

Track 2:  That is Hubert Laws on flute. He was very big when I was just starting to get into jazz. I saw him live in 1978. I recognize his playing here. I have this album. This is the title track.

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Hot Ptah

[Hot Ptah]

Track 9. This is from a James Carter album, "Layin' in the Cut", which was released at about the same time as another James Carter album, "Chasin' the Gypsy", in 2000. I remember this vividly because the two albums are very different and I was really into James Carter at the time. I had seen an incredible live show by Carter in the spring of 1996 at the short lived and lamented Drum Room club in Kansas City, Missouri.

I was excited by the two albums coming out at once. "Chasin' the Gypsy" is a real favorite of mine, both accessible and inspired. "Layin' in the Cut" is more hard edged and also inspired.

Listening to "Layin' in the Cut" again, I find that this track is "Drafadelic in D Flat."

Track 10 is right up my alley. I was very much into David Murray when this album came out in 1982.  His octet recordings, such as this one, seemed so fresh and imaginative and inspired to me at the time. They still do! To me, this is the real stuff, the essence, the beating heart of jazz.

This is "Last of the Hipmen" from the David Murray Octet's "Home" album. I bought the album on vinyl (as CDs had not been invented yet) and just about wore out the grooves.

What an octet! David Murray, Henry Threadgill, Olu Dara, Butch Morris, George Lewis, Anthony Davis, Wilbur Morris, Steve McCall. This was truly a golden age of jazz. This is what should have gone on to be the future of jazz, instead of the manufactured neo-con movement.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Hot Ptah

[tkeith]

4 hours ago, SMB1968 said:

Track 5: Vandermark ?

Nay, sir.

3 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

Track 2:  That is Hubert Laws on flute. He was very big when I was just starting to get into jazz. I saw him live in 1978. I recognize his playing here. I have this album. This is the title track.

 

Ding!  Ding!

3 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

Track 9. This is from a James Carter album, "Layin' in the Cut", which was released at about the same time as another James Carter album, "Chasin' the Gypsy", in 2000. I remember this vividly because the two albums are very different and I was really into James Carter at the time. I had seen an incredible live show by Carter in the spring of 1996 at the short lived and lamented Drum Room club in Kansas City, Missouri.

I was excited by the two albums coming out at once. "Chasin' the Gypsy" is a real favorite of mine, both accessible and inspired. "Layin' in the Cut" is more hard edged and also inspired.

Listening to "Layin' in the Cut" again, I find that this track is "Drafadelic in D Flat."

Track 10 is right up my alley. I was very much into David Murray when this album came out in 1982.  His octet recordings, such as this one, seemed so fresh and imaginative and inspired to me at the time. They still do! To me, this is the real stuff, the essence, the beating heart of jazz.

This is "Last of the Hipmen" from the David Murray Octet's "Home" album. I bought the album on vinyl (as CDs had not been invented yet) and just about wore out the grooves.

What an octet! David Murray, Henry Threadgill, Olu Dara, Butch Morris, George Lewis, Anthony Davis, Wilbur Morris, Steve McCall. This was truly a golden age of jazz. This is what should have gone on to be the future of jazz, instead of the manufactured neo-con movement.

Ding!  Ding!²

[Hot Ptah]

Track 7 is either "Home on the Range" or the Lennon/McCartney tune, "With a Little Help From My Friends." I had never noticed before how close the two songs are.

I do not know the artist for this track.

[tkeith]

3 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

Track 7 is either "Home on the Range" or the Lennon/McCartney tune, "With a Little Help From My Friends." I had never noticed before how close the two songs are.

I do not know the artist for this track.

Correct on the Lennon/McCartney assessment.  Many people make that connection when the song is played at this tempo.

[Hot Ptah]

Track 1 is Charlie Parker's "Confirmation". But who is playing it? I feel like I am a half inch away from identifying all of the musicians, but I can't identify them. Who IS that drummer? At times the drummer sounds a little like Art Blakey, but bashes too much to be Art.

Track 3 gives me the same feeling, like I am so close to knowing all of the musicians. The bassist sounds like he is from the Cecil McBee-Richard Davis approach to bass.

[Spontooneous]

Late to the party.

Hot Ptah asks the right question about 1. Who IS that drummer? The straight four on the ride cymbal, unvarying, never in need of variation, points directly to Kenny Clarke. Gotta be Klook, I'm 100 percent convinced. (Preparing for egg on face.) 

As for the tenor on 1, I'm going with Moody.

I'd love to know the pianist, whose enthusiasm is infectious.

Skipping to 3 for the moment: Is the tenor Archie Shepp?

[JSngry]

Taking time off from duty for a little listen, not too much time to comment.

TRACK ONE - Clifford Jordan, no doubt.

TRACK TWO - sounds like CTI (not a complaint), Ron Carter, Hubert Laws.

TRACK THREE - Frank Lowe? Not bad, but I'd not like to think that it was anybody's best work and/or defining moment.

TRACK FOUR - Sounds like Gabor Szabo on the guitar, except for the context. Bari player here almost sounds like the tenor on the previous cut. Trumpet player has personality and the beginnings of a real voice, I can hear him/her thinking while they play, but the next step is to not really think about it at all, just play it. Not that it's that easy...or that that's really the next step. Just that there is a next step from where this is.

TRACK FIVE - This is music that will prove that The Test Of Time is a real thing.

TRACK SIX - Pentatonic is the new diatonic, have fun with that. It's neither old nor new enough to sound either old or new, in either sequence.

TRACK SEVEN -I think about the reasons why anybody would do a Beatles song in this manner, that Beatles song in particular, I mean jesus, you talk about everything that drove Zappa to do We're Only In It For The Money, I think you can find a lot of it in that song, and none of them make be particularly happy. I get along without you very well, wasn't that a song too?  Is that Dave Liebman? It's like Wayne, except when it's not. Wayne, even cliche-Wayne, always has a ....depth to it that this does not have at the moments it really needs to.

TRACK EIGHT - Oh god, I have this record, this is one of the Music Inc. big bands, right? The first one, right? WRONG! It's "Plight" from the second one. DOH! Tolliver's writing and playing is pretty distinctive. I don't know that all of his tunes hold up under the weight of his scoring, this might be one, the form is broken up but repetitive, but oh well, I still dug the shit out of that album, especially Side One. If you can have the LP esthetic, that was just one massive slab of GINORMOUSLY Defiant Last Gasp Music. This tune led off Side Two, and was lighter, and again, the repetition of form is not served best by this version (imo), but I give that band and that label and this record fullest props, it's like a whatever-that-style-is-called-today version of Dizzy's 40s big band, not particularly "tight", but fuck tight like that when you bring the meaning, ok? Strength in numbers, especially when all the numbers are strong on their own (what kind of a sax section are we talking about? A James Spaulding/Charles McPherson/Harold Vick/George Coleman/Charles Davis kind of a sax section, end of story). Tolliver, then today's man Charles McPherson, George Coleman and a big band mutually ass-kicking onto a higher plane and then it keeps going? Sheeeeeeet, that's why you have a big band, to do that, to play as a more fuller community. Accept no substitutes, unless they pay to, and even then, do it, just don't accept it.

TRACK NINE - James Carter, right off the bat. He's a man of his times, for better and/or for worse. But no matter what, I very much like that he does what he does without any compunction or guilt or anything, ever. Ever.

TRACK TEN - David Murray. Not a big deal today, but those Octet records really shook a lot people up, because Murray was in a lot of people's minds, a "loft player", so this attention to detail and formal structure was  not really expected. Geez, what personalities, and they all came through. I saw a version of the octet at Caravan Of Dreams, and the energy was even more than on the records. David Murray has worked hard, and has not been afraid to step on his dick on record in order to keep working hard. Whatever trenches there are left otday, I think it's safe to say that David Murray's been in them, so hell yeah.

TRACK ELEVEN - That's a familiar tune, right? If not, it has a lot of elements of familiar tunes? The latter, I think, as the time settles in and the form recurs. I cut a lot of slack for direct-recorded bass, but this guy here, he is not well-served by it. His sound has more air in it, and instead of whoomp, he gets thud. There's one point where he bears down and I was like, KILL ALL ENGINEERS, but that's wrong in so many ways, moral and practical, each in their own way. Overall, I could like it or be indifferent, depending on what zone tI was in at the moment. Can't see myself ever dis-linking it though, and it does speak with a humble confidence that I will always appreciate.

Well, that was fun, thanks!

 

 

 

[tkeith]

6 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

Track 1 is Charlie Parker's "Confirmation". But who is playing it? I feel like I am a half inch away from identifying all of the musicians, but I can't identify them. Who IS that drummer? At times the drummer sounds a little like Art Blakey, but bashes too much to be Art.

Track 3 gives me the same feeling, like I am so close to knowing all of the musicians. The bassist sounds like he is from the Cecil McBee-Richard Davis approach to bass.

I think the personnel on track one will throw some people.  I also think people might be over thinking it.  Each of these players plays his trademark licks on this track.  

Not CM or RD on track 3, but heavy hitters for sure.
 

3 hours ago, Spontooneous said:

Late to the party.

Hot Ptah asks the right question about 1. Who IS that drummer? The straight four on the ride cymbal, unvarying, never in need of variation, points directly to Kenny Clarke. Gotta be Klook, I'm 100 percent convinced. (Preparing for egg on face.) 

As for the tenor on 1, I'm going with Moody.

I'd love to know the pianist, whose enthusiasm is infectious.

Skipping to 3 for the moment: Is the tenor Archie Shepp?

Welcome, Spoon!  Love the Kenny Clarke comparison, but not him.  Not Moody, either.  IMHO, I put this guy a notch or two above James.

Not Shepp on 3, but I think it would be safe to say out of that school.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Taking time off from duty for a little listen, not too much time to comment.

Uh-oh... Jim has arrived, expecting a slew of IDs!

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK ONE - Clifford Jordan, no doubt.

Correct, sir!

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK TWO - sounds like CTI (not a complaint), Ron Carter, Hubert Laws.

Embryo records, actually.  Correct on both guys.  ID'd by Bill.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK THREE - Frank Lowe? Not bad, but I'd not like to think that it was anybody's best work and/or defining moment.

Correct, sir!

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK FOUR - Sounds like Gabor Szabo on the guitar, except for the context. Bari player here almost sounds like the tenor on the previous cut. Trumpet player has personality and the beginnings of a real voice, I can hear him/her thinking while they play, but the next step is to not really think about it at all, just play it. Not that it's that easy...or that that's really the next step. Just that there is a next step from where this is.

Not Gabor.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK FIVE - This is music that will prove that The Test Of Time is a real thing.

TRACK SIX - Pentatonic is the new diatonic, have fun with that. It's neither old nor new enough to sound either old or new, in either sequence.

TRACK SEVEN -I think about the reasons why anybody would do a Beatles song in this manner, that Beatles song in particular, I mean jesus, you talk about everything that drove Zappa to do We're Only In It For The Money, I think you can find a lot of it in that song, and none of them make be particularly happy. I get along without you very well, wasn't that a song too?  Is that Dave Liebman? It's like Wayne, except when it's not. Wayne, even cliche-Wayne, always has a ....depth to it that this does not have at the moments it really needs to.

Not David.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK EIGHT - Oh god, I have this record, this is one of the Music Inc. big bands, right? The first one, right? WRONG! It's "Plight" from the second one. DOH! Tolliver's writing and playing is pretty distinctive. I don't know that all of his tunes hold up under the weight of his scoring, this might be one, the form is broken up but repetitive, but oh well, I still dug the shit out of that album, especially Side One. If you can have the LP esthetic, that was just one massive slab of GINORMOUSLY Defiant Last Gasp Music. This tune led off Side Two, and was lighter, and again, the repetition of form is not served best by this version (imo), but I give that band and that label and this record fullest props, it's like a whatever-that-style-is-called-today version of Dizzy's 40s big band, not particularly "tight", but fuck tight like that when you bring the meaning, ok? Strength in numbers, especially when all the numbers are strong on their own (what kind of a sax section are we talking about? A James Spaulding/Charles McPherson/Harold Vick/George Coleman/Charles Davis kind of a sax section, end of story). Tolliver, then today's man Charles McPherson, George Coleman and a big band mutually ass-kicking onto a higher plane and then it keeps going? Sheeeeeeet, that's why you have a big band, to do that, to play as a more fuller community. Accept no substitutes, unless they pay to, and even then, do it, just don't accept it.

 

Correct on nearly all counts, though for me, this track is the highlight of this album.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

TRACK NINE - James Carter, right off the bat. He's a man of his times, for better and/or for worse. But no matter what, I very much like that he does what he does without any compunction or guilt or anything, ever. Ever.

#truth

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK TEN - David Murray. Not a big deal today, but those Octet records really shook a lot people up, because Murray was in a lot of people's minds, a "loft player", so this attention to detail and formal structure was  not really expected. Geez, what personalities, and they all came through. I saw a version of the octet at Caravan Of Dreams, and the energy was even more than on the records. David Murray has worked hard, and has not been afraid to step on his dick on record in order to keep working hard. Whatever trenches there are left otday, I think it's safe to say that David Murray's been in them, so hell yeah.

I LOVE the way you worded this.  Perfect.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

TRACK ELEVEN - That's a familiar tune, right? If not, it has a lot of elements of familiar tunes? The latter, I think, as the time settles in and the form recurs. I cut a lot of slack for direct-recorded bass, but this guy here, he is not well-served by it. His sound has more air in it, and instead of whoomp, he gets thud. There's one point where he bears down and I was like, KILL ALL ENGINEERS, but that's wrong in so many ways, moral and practical, each in their own way. Overall, I could like it or be indifferent, depending on what zone tI was in at the moment. Can't see myself ever dis-linking it though, and it does speak with a humble confidence that I will always appreciate.

Well, that was fun, thanks!

 

 

 

Thank YOU for the thoughtful responses.  You did about as well as anyone who didn't receive a personal invite (and only one of those four has participated, privately; and he cleaned up).

[Hot Ptah]

So #1 is Clifford Jordan, but who are those other musicians, and where does this recording come from?

[tkeith]

3 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

So #1 is Clifford Jordan, but who are those other musicians, and where does this recording come from?

That is the part I'm hoping people will fill in.  A hint:  These are ALL well-known musicians with great résumés.  I'll again offer the hint that each guy plays his signature line during this tune.

 

[Hot Ptah]

Track 11. It hit me during the piano solo that this is a skilled recreation. Is the group Mostly Other People Do the Killing?

[tkeith]

1 hour ago, Hot Ptah said:

Track 11. It hit me during the piano solo that this is a skilled recreation. Is the group Mostly Other People Do the Killing?

It is not.

[Hardbopjazz]

Here are my responses to this BFT. I will now read the other responses. I have cement in my ears. 

 

 

1 – Conformation. Just a guess, is this Clifford Jordan on tenor?  The tenor sound reminds me of him. I don’t know what recording this is. I have just about all his recordings so this is something new to me if it is him.

 

2 -  70’s jazz. No idea who it is.

 

3 – no clue.

 

4 – another one I have no clue.

 

5 – I have led in my ears. No clue on this. I like the tenor player.

 

6 – The bone player is real good. Once again I can’t ID anyone.

 

7 – Soprano player has a nice tone. The tune sounds familiar but changed up a lot, but I don’t recall the title or any of the musicians.

 

8 – Just guessing. Could this be the Charles Tolliver Orchestra?  Charles on trumpet.

 

9 – Sounds like James Carter. Can’t mistake his sound, but I don’t know recording.

 

10 – No clue.

 

11 -  Don’t know this.  I like the tenor player on this one. He/She has good range, high and low of the sax.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Hardbopjazz