chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 Kenny Dorham was in the band a little before this date, why did they go w/ clifford brown? Quote
Milestones Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 Wouldn't you? Kenny is great, but Clifford is one of the all-time greatest on trumpet. Quote
mjzee Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 "When I saw Clifford Brown, I said, 'Well, Jesus, I need a trumpet player,' so Charlie Parker said, 'When you get to Philadelphia and play in the Blue Note on Ridge Avenue, your trumpet player will be there.' I said, 'Who was it?' He said, 'Don't worry about that, you just …uh…and he will be.' And we get there and in the dressing room somebody's back there blowing. This guy had a stocking cap on, suspenders, and blowing his horn, warming up. He sounds beautiful. So Ike Quebec was with me at the time. He said, 'Man, why don't you tell me you're getting a farmer to play trumpet.' (laughter) I say, 'Well, I don't know, Bird tells me…' He said, 'Man, Jesus Christ, man, plus he ain't nothin' but a kid.' And he (Clifford Brown) had a very high voice and was very sweet. So I said, 'Well, come on, we're going to hit.' He (Brown) came out and played the first chorus of it and after he played the first chorus, Ike turned around and cussed me out, 'Dirty so-and-so, how come you didn't tell me the kid could play like that?' (laughter) That's what happened. He upset everybody. You don't know where they're coming from." - Art Blakey, Cadence, July 1981, pp.8-9. "That's how I met Clifford Brown. I told Bird I'm going to Philadelphia, and I've got to have a trumpet player. He said 'I got a trumpet player for you, you go to the gig and he'll be there. He lives down in Wilmington.' I trusted Bird. I went to Philly and there was Clifford in the dressing room. I'd never seen him before or heard anything about him in my life. He sure surprised the hell out of me." - Art Blakey, quoted by Herb Nolan in Down Beat, November 1979, p.21. "Charlie Parker hired Clifford Brown. He just told me that this was my new trumpet player, and he told Clifford he wanted him to work with me. When I got to Philadelphia, Clifford was in the dressing room waiting for me. That's the way Bird did everything, that's how much respect he commanded from everybody. Clifford played with me about a year. He'd gotten so damn popular so damn fast that after we made an appearance at Birdland, that was it: he went out on his own with Max Roach. But I sure had a ball while he was there." - Art Blakey, Down BeatMarch 25, 1976, p.15. All from: http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Artists/Blakey/chron.htm Quote
sgcim Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 Maybe we've found the problem with jazz today; Bird's not around to recommend anyone anymore! Quote
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 thanks for that- never expected Bird to be involved......yet bird and brownie never played together, rt- Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 4 hours ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said: thanks for that- never expected Bird to be involved......yet bird and brownie never played together, rt- Reputedly they did,k it was recorded, Clifford's widow has the tapes, reputedly - not like I'd know. Quote
JSngry Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 Art Blakey always told a good story, but CB was already recording on BN (as leader and as sideman) and gone to Paris with Hamp before the Birdland date, so I don't know about this "about a year" thing, or about ever being a permanent member of Blakey's band. I don't doubt that Bird hipped Blakey to Brown, though. But Art Blakey always told a good story. Quote
felser Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 2 hours ago, JSngry said: Art Blakey always told a good story, but CB was already recording on BN (as leader and as sideman) and gone to Paris with Hamp before the Birdland date, so I don't know about this "about a year" thing, or about ever being a permanent member of Blakey's band. I don't doubt that Bird hipped Blakey to Brown, though. But Art Blakey always told a good story. Yes he did. Remember the first (of only two) time I ever saw him live, late 80's ish. The Opera House in Wilmington, DE. Benny Green's first gig with the Messengers. Philip Harper on trumpet and Jean Toussaint on tenor if I remember correctly (though both or either may be wrong, but pretty sure about Harper). Blakey, at the end of the show, came out and talked to the audience, and was mesmerizing. I still remember him saying "This music is a gift from the Creator, through us, to you.". They were still doing "Moanin" and "Blues March". The other time I saw him was at Penn's Landing in Philly. Couple years later, totally new and very very young band. Geoff Keezer, who was just a kid, Brian Lynch, who killed it on trumpet that night, Steve Davis on trombone, Javon Jackson and Dale Barlow both on tenor. I think the bass player was Essiet O. Essiet, though that is hazy. Very near the end of Blakey's life, and he was pretty clearly deaf, but still on fire. Nothing like that press roll. And more stories. And a couple months later he was gone. Very thankful for him and his music. Is there a good biography or documentary on his life anywhere? Had six kids of his own and adopted six others if I remember correctly. Quote
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 i never heard he was deaf//nearly deaf/musican deaf by then, but i sure do can believe it Quote
John L Posted June 2, 2017 Report Posted June 2, 2017 11 hours ago, Milestones said: Wouldn't you? Kenny is great, but Clifford is one of the all-time greatest on trumpet. Not necessarily. I actually like listening to Kenny Dorham more. But Clifford Brown did have more flash and charisma, not to mention technique. Quote
Larry Kart Posted June 2, 2017 Report Posted June 2, 2017 5 hours ago, JSngry said: Art Blakey always told a good story, but CB was already recording on BN (as leader and as sideman) and gone to Paris with Hamp before the Birdland date, so I don't know about this "about a year" thing, or about ever being a permanent member of Blakey's band. I don't doubt that Bird hipped Blakey to Brown, though. But Art Blakey always told a good story. More than few stories, too: Wikipedia: After the Eckstine band broke up, Blakey states that he traveled to Africa for a time: "In 1947, after the Eckstine band broke up, we took a trip to Africa. I was supposed to stay there three months and I stayed two years because I wanted to live among the people and find out just how they lived and—about the drums especially.”[ From another later interview: HH: Is it true that you lived in West Africa for a time? AB: No. I was only there for a short visit. I didn’t go there to play music, but to study religion. Oh sure, a lot of people said I went to Africa to play drums. African drums have nothing to do with what we do. Africans have nothing to do with us because they’re black and we’re black. We are Americans like everyone else, far removed from Africa. Quote
JSngry Posted June 2, 2017 Report Posted June 2, 2017 Considering that Lion was already recording Brown for BN, and that Lion was already midwifing the nascent Silver/Blakey Messengers concept and actively recording LD as a leader, I'd not be at all surprised to say that recording live at Birdland specifically with Blakey/Silver/Brown/Donaldson was not a Blue Note "project" in at lease some part. Quote
jazzbo Posted June 2, 2017 Report Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) The real deal is that Clifford paid Pee Wee Marquette fifty dollars. . . and it happened. Edited June 2, 2017 by jazzbo Quote
HutchFan Posted June 2, 2017 Report Posted June 2, 2017 16 hours ago, felser said: Is there a good biography or documentary on his life anywhere? Had six kids of his own and adopted six others if I remember correctly. felser, The only Blakey book of which I'm aware is Hard Bop Academy: The Sidemen of Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers by Alan Goldsher. It's not exactly a biography. It's more an oral history of Blakey as told by his sidemen. I wouldn't call it "essential," but I did enjoy it. Quote
bertrand Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 Leslie Gourse wrote one of her quickie biographies on Blakey, not very good. Remember that a photo surfaced showing Gigi Gryce with the group? It was dated close to the Birdland date, within a few days IIRC. It was the same band as the Birdland group, but with Gigi instead of Lou. It made it look like Lou was almost a last-minute sub. Sorry my memory is a bit hazy. Bertrand. Quote
JSngry Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 Donaldson had been recording for BN as a leader, right? Quote
Larry Kart Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Donaldson had been recording for BN as a leader, right? Yes Lou Donaldson Quartet Lou Donaldson (alto sax) Horace Silver (piano) Gene Ramey (bass) Art Taylor (drums) WOR Studios, NYC, June 20, 1952 BN440-0 tk.1 Roccus (alternate take) Blue Note CDP 7 81537 2 BN440-1 tk.2 Roccus Blue Note 1598, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 BN442-2 tk.7 Cheek To Cheek (alternate take) Blue Note CDP 7 81537 2 BN443-0 tk.8 Lou's Blues (alternate take) - BN443-1 tk.9 Lou's Blues Blue Note 1599, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 BN442-4 tk.11 Cheek To Cheek Blue Note 1598, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 BN441-2 tk.12 The Things We Did Last Summer Blue Note 1599, BLP 5021, (J) BNJ-61008/10 * Blue Note BLP 1537, CDP 7 81537 2 Lou Donaldson Quartet/Quintet/Sextet* Blue Note (J) BNJ-61008/10 Various Artists - The Other Side Of Blue Note 1500 Series* Blue Note BLP 5021 Lou Donaldson - New Faces-New Sounds* Blue Note 1598 Lou Donaldson - Roccus / Cheek To Cheek* Blue Note 1599 Lou Donaldson - The Things We Did Last Summer / Lou's Blues Lou Donaldson Quintet Blue Mitchell (trumpet -2/4) Lou Donaldson (alto sax) Horace Silver (piano) Percy Heath (bass) Art Blakey (drums) WOR Studios, NYC, November 19, 1952 1. BN457-0 tk.1 Sweet Juice Blue Note 1609, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 2. BN459-1 tk.8 Down Home Blue Note 1610, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 3. BN460-1 tk.10 The Best Things In Life Are Free Blue Note 1609, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 4. BN458-5 tk.12 If I Love Again Blue Note 1610, BLP 5021, BLP 1537 * Blue Note BLP 1537, CDP 7 81537 2 Lou Donaldson Quartet/Quintet/Sextet* Blue Note BLP 5021 Lou Donaldson - New Faces-New Sounds* Blue Note 1609 Lou Donaldson - Sweet Juice / The Best Things In Life Are Free* Blue Note 1610 Lou Donaldson - If I Love Again / Down Home Quote
AllenLowe Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 well the truth is that in those days anybody who had a choice would get out of Blakey's band as fast as possible. He stole money from his sidemen continually. Great great drummer but a slime as a human being. Quote
Milestones Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 I guess Wayne Shorter was a fool for staying all those years. Quote
JSngry Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 IIRC, Wayne was Musical Director, talking over Benny Golson's role. Golson, in turn, had been brought in to establish some discipline to the Jazz Messengers brand owing to the fact that prior to that they were a wild bunch whose reliability was suspect (for all the "usual causes". Blakey was no better and even worse than his band in that regard. I recall an article written about him towards the end of his life that said something along the lines of Art Blakey is know as a lot of things, a/b/c/the world's oldest junkie/d/e/etc. And that's after he was a Beloved Institution. By all accounts, he was and remained, as Curtis Fuller said in that documentary, "a rascal"! Quote
Mark Stryker Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, JSngry said: IIRC, Wayne was Musical Director, talking over Benny Golson's role. Golson, in turn, had been brought in to establish some discipline to the Jazz Messengers brand owing to the fact that prior to that they were a wild bunch whose reliability was suspect (for all the "usual causes". Blakey was no better and even worse than his band in that regard. I recall an article written about him towards the end of his life that said something along the lines of Art Blakey is know as a lot of things, a/b/c/the world's oldest junkie/d/e/etc. And that's after he was a Beloved Institution. By all accounts, he was and remained, as Curtis Fuller said in that documentary, "a rascal"! Once the band got established, the personal was among the most stable in jazz for any band of more than three people. From 1959-61, the only real change was Timmons leaving and then returning. From 1961-64, once Freddie replaced Lee, Cedar replaced Timmons and Curtis came aboard, there were no changes except for Workman replacing Merritt. In fact, going back to '58, the band was intact, save Golson for Shorter. Now, as to what kind of crazy shit was happening between 1956-58, that was certainly an environment in a lot of flux. Coda: Are we sure Shorter took over as musical director for Golson? Wayne was definitely in charge of the music for the sextet with Freddie and Curtis, but I wonder if Morgan succeeded Golson at first. Too lazy to look it up. Someone please get on that. Thanks in advance. Edited June 3, 2017 by Mark Stryker Quote
AllenLowe Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Milestones said: I guess Wayne Shorter was a fool for staying all those years. "all those years," first of all, were the '50s (Clifford Brown died in 1956). 2nd of all, musicians will take gigs. But if you ever talked to people like Billy Hardman (who was near apoplectic one night when someone mentioned Blakey's name) or Jamil Nasser, you knew what his character was. Of course, in keeping with the occasional nastiness around here, you miss the fact that I never said any musician was a fool to work with Blakey; only that he was a horror to work for in those years; and I don't know if the horrors carried over into the post-'60s era, though of course the association was very good for any player, career-wise. But of course I am sure you knew many musicians who worked with him. Edited June 3, 2017 by AllenLowe Quote
Dan Gould Posted June 3, 2017 Report Posted June 3, 2017 When I interviewed Eddie Higgins the biggest "scoop" of that afternoon spent in his company was that Blakey offered him a job and his reason not to take it was ... interesting. A: Well, I didn't turn him down right on the spot, I just said let me think about it and I'll call you tomorrow. And I went home and told my wife. She said, What do you think? And I said, Well I've been giving it some thought and there is one huge plus and a lot of negatives. I said the huge plus was obvious. Getting the piano job with the Jazz Messengers will immediately put me on the map in the world of jazz and I'll be traveling all over between the States and Japan and Europe and working in the top jazz clubs and making recordings for this band and all that stuff and that's a huge plus, no question about it. Now we come to the negatives (laughs). First of all I've got a great job here in Chicago at the London House and my kids were very little at that point, they were about six and four years old. And the idea of being on the road all the time and not seeing my children grow up is a negative. Number two, this is pretty much an all-junkie band and I'm not only not a junkie, I don't even drink or smoke or (laughs) or smoke pot or anything at all, I'm about as straight as you can get and still be a jazz musician. And I would be out of the loop as far as the social life of the band plus the fact that I'd be the only white guy in the band, and at that particular time in jazz history there was a very strong Crow Jim feeling that if you're white you couldn't play. And obviously they knew I could play or I wouldn't be on these record dates or asked to join the band but still there'd be a, a definite racial bridge to cross there working with the Jazz Messengers and playing in probably mostly black clubs for mostly black audiences and so forth. And third, I heard by the grapevine that when payday came the first guy that got the money was the connection for the heroin and not just Blakey but the rest of the band, too, and if there's any money left over then they pay the hotel bill and, and if there's anything left over from that then maybe the guys will get a few bucks. And, I had a family, and I had overhead, I had rent to pay, and insurance payments, and you know, I had enough to make every month and I was doing OK, I wasn't making a million bucks at the London House but at least I had a steady job and I was getting paid every week. And that would put me in a very kind of a fancy financial situation. If I was living on the road and being away from my family I'd, I'd have no idea how much money I'd be sending home or even if I'd be sending home anything (laughs)! And so it just seemed to me the negatives outweighed the one big positive. So I called him up the next day and I said, I'm very honored to to join the Messengers and I'll never forget it, and all my friends will probably think I'm crazy but I'm going to say no.' And he said, You're kidding. I said, No, I mean it. And I said, I can go into the reasons if you want but I don't think they'd accomplish anything except to make you upset so, I'll just say no'. And he said, You'll be sorry. Quote
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